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Community Transmission — Anakin Skywalker

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Replies

  • ZmanGames wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    The older hero's would of been fine had it not been for unnecessary nerfs, also Vader needs a serious buff if this is how anakin is going to be portrayed

    It has been established that Anakin would have been a much more powerful Force and lightsaber-user withoutthe suit. It makes sense that he is stronger than Vader, since the Vader's suit is very detrimental to his abilities.

    False. All of it.

    Actually it is accurate. Vader is a more polished/mature/calculating warrior, but he lost a lot of his inherent power after Mustafar. The suit does not add to his abilities but instead makes him more clunky. Sidious did this on purpose even though he had the option of giving him a suit more like Grievous.

    The suit means nothing. 19 years between RotS and ANH and Vader now grows in the force through dark side teachings. Anakin Skywalker did not become weaker in order to dominate the galaxy with Palpatine, but stronger, and continued to grow in strength as Darth Vader.

    Let's ask the guy who created Star Wars... According to George Lucas in a 2005 interview with Vanity Fair, Anakin’s potential strength was twice that of Sidious', until he was burned:

    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor… So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

    Sidious acknowledges that Anakin is more powerful than he is in several sources, but when he was burned on Mustafar, according to George Lucas, he lost approximately 60% of his force power

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity before Mustafar = 2x Sidious

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity after Mustafar = .8x Sidious

    And here is more of the same from George Lucas:

    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

    "The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

    Wait, wait.. sorry, without offense but you are manipulating all this or misurandestand all this. Vader with the suit is still more powerful than Anakin in episode 3.

    Lucas in this interview only says that Vader without his wounds would become even more powerful, he is not saying at all that he is not powerful or that he is not more powerful than Anakin in episode 3.
    Vader's potential continued to grow after the Mustafar incident. And it is Palpatine himself who recognizes that Vader becomes more powerful in the new comics that are canonical.
    So even if we still have to consider canonical these mini interviews to Lucas (who at other times contradicted himself on these issues) there is no doubt that canonically Vader is more powerful than the Anakin of episode 3. Vader is canonically the most powerful Sith along with Palpatine. And even in the new canon there are suggestions that put him above all at all. In this canonical material it is talked about by Kylo Ren in reference to Vader and it says:

    ''Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi and Sith, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy.''
    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

    Another canonical proof that makes it clear that Vader is more powerful than Anakin in episode 3 is this, where Vader muses that his injuries increased his connection to the Force, suggesting that he has become more powerful than he was as Anakin:

    ''VADER COMPLETED HIS MEDITATION and opened his eyes. His pale, flame-savaged face stared back at him from out of the reflective black surface of his pressurized meditation chamber. Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arm, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.
    He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight''.
    -- Lords Of The Sith

    Vader is Palpatine's most powerful emissary and a champion of the Dark Side:

    ''But the younger Skywalker’s life changed forever when he learned that not only was Anakin in fact a Jedi Knight who fought in the Clone Wars, but also that he subsequently became Darth Vader, the Emperor’s most feared and powerful emissary, and a champion of the dark side of the Force.''

    Palpatine describes Vader's powers as unparalleled:

    “Come, Darth Vader, you of all people should accept that some are born for greatness. That some are larger than life.”

    Vader remained silent.

    “Yes, Lord Vader.” Sidious softened his tone. “You are a true Sith, Lord Vader. Your dedication is unerring and your powers unparalleled. Perhaps, however, you are under the misimpression that only Sith and Jedi have trials to pass.”
    -- Tarkin
    Skyguy501 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    The older hero's would of been fine had it not been for unnecessary nerfs, also Vader needs a serious buff if this is how anakin is going to be portrayed

    It has been established that Anakin would have been a much more powerful Force and lightsaber-user withoutthe suit. It makes sense that he is stronger than Vader, since the Vader's suit is very detrimental to his abilities.

    False. All of it.

    Actually it is accurate. Vader is a more polished/mature/calculating warrior, but he lost a lot of his inherent power after Mustafar. The suit does not add to his abilities but instead makes him more clunky. Sidious did this on purpose even though he had the option of giving him a suit more like Grievous.

    The suit means nothing. 19 years between RotS and ANH and Vader now grows in the force through dark side teachings. Anakin Skywalker did not become weaker in order to dominate the galaxy with Palpatine, but stronger, and continued to grow in strength as Darth Vader.

    Let's ask the guy who created Star Wars... According to George Lucas in a 2005 interview with Vanity Fair, Anakin’s potential strength was twice that of Sidious', until he was burned:

    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor… So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

    Sidious acknowledges that Anakin is more powerful than he is in several sources, but when he was burned on Mustafar, according to George Lucas, he lost approximately 60% of his force power

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity before Mustafar = 2x Sidious

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity after Mustafar = .8x Sidious

    And here is more of the same from George Lucas:

    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

    "The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

    This. All of this is fact. This has been common knowledge way before Disney bought Lucasfilm Ltd. It also makes sense why the Emperor was eager to replace Vader with Luke. He’s younger, more agile, and more importantly, powerful. Everything he set up in Episode VI was so that he got exactly what he wanted. Except... because he’d gotten so used to getting what he wanted, his plans were undermined when Luke didn’t give in. Blinded by his rage and thirst for vengeance against Luke, it allowed Vader that one moment to overthrow his master, save his son and fulfill the prophesy of the Chosen One.

    Palpatine want Luke because is a Skywalker the son of Vader, and he hope he can obtain a Vader 2.0. But this not mean that Luke in episode 6 was already more powerful than Vader or that Vader wasn't more powerful than Anakin in episode 3 as i prove with canon statements above. Seem that some of you just underestimate Vader too much, i suggest to read this:

    https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/darth-vader-respect-thread-canon-1872153/

    All I am talking about is force potential - inherent force capacity. Not training, tactics, experience, skill, technique, knowledge, etc.

    This clearly states that Sidious has more force capacity than Vader after Mustafar. This clearly states that Luke could realize the potential that pre injury Vader could have, which indicates his force potential is much higher than post Mustafar Vader. And it clearly indicates that Vader lost 60% of his potential.

    That's it. Just the inherent force capacity.

    Everything else is not as clear and depends on what you allow into your own cannon or not. If it's just George then its that. If it's what Disney calls cannon then its that. And if it's all of it including the EU then that's fine too. It is an interesting question to wonder who would win. Episode 3 Anakin or Rogue One Vader. I'd personally still put my bets on Anakin, but you can do as you wish, and I won't tell you you are wrong, just that I have a different view.

    But that's just potential, how good someone could have been doesn't mean they should be at that level in the game when they never reached it.

    Yes this is an obviously fair point to make. The question of who would win in a fight between ROTS Anakin and OT Vader is open to debate based on what you draw from. I personally think Anakin in ROTS would mop the floor with Vader, but you are welcome to your opinion.

    And as far as Disney is concerned, Battlefront 2 is canon so Anakin must be more powerful ;P (joke)

    But seriously, in game power is all messed up, if you are trying to be accurate. Sidious and Yoda should clearly be the most powerful. Then it gets closer between Anakin, Vader, Luke, Rey (since she is somehow amazing with no training), Kylo, Obi-Wan, Maul, and Tyranus. People like Han, Lando, Iden, Phasma, and Finn should have no chance against any of the force users. I still would put Anakin only after Sidious and Yoda, but that's me. And of course people freaked out about Sidous' OPness - and so here we are with a somewhat balanced cast of heroes/villians, and the choice to make Anakin stronger than the rest which one can clearly argue for or against.
  • Woooow... Anakin sounds absolutely EPIC. My God, I can't wait to play him! Outstanding work, DICE!

    Here's hoping we'll eventually get Appearances based on Attack of the Clones and The Clone Wars, too. :smiley:
    "All wings report in."
  • To anyone saying Anakin will be OP, I say good! The light side heroes all suck compared to the dark side. The dark side has been unrivaled since launch and finally after months and months we are getting a powerful light side hero.
  • FTLOG

    Give Luke a BUFF.

  • So, can Anakin interact with anything?
  • awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    The older hero's would of been fine had it not been for unnecessary nerfs, also Vader needs a serious buff if this is how anakin is going to be portrayed

    It has been established that Anakin would have been a much more powerful Force and lightsaber-user withoutthe suit. It makes sense that he is stronger than Vader, since the Vader's suit is very detrimental to his abilities.

    False. All of it.

    Actually it is accurate. Vader is a more polished/mature/calculating warrior, but he lost a lot of his inherent power after Mustafar. The suit does not add to his abilities but instead makes him more clunky. Sidious did this on purpose even though he had the option of giving him a suit more like Grievous.

    The suit means nothing. 19 years between RotS and ANH and Vader now grows in the force through dark side teachings. Anakin Skywalker did not become weaker in order to dominate the galaxy with Palpatine, but stronger, and continued to grow in strength as Darth Vader.

    Let's ask the guy who created Star Wars... According to George Lucas in a 2005 interview with Vanity Fair, Anakin’s potential strength was twice that of Sidious', until he was burned:

    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor… So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

    Sidious acknowledges that Anakin is more powerful than he is in several sources, but when he was burned on Mustafar, according to George Lucas, he lost approximately 60% of his force power

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity before Mustafar = 2x Sidious

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity after Mustafar = .8x Sidious

    And here is more of the same from George Lucas:

    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

    "The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

    Wait, wait.. sorry, without offense but you are manipulating all this or misurandestand all this. Vader with the suit is still more powerful than Anakin in episode 3.

    Lucas in this interview only says that Vader without his wounds would become even more powerful, he is not saying at all that he is not powerful or that he is not more powerful than Anakin in episode 3.
    Vader's potential continued to grow after the Mustafar incident. And it is Palpatine himself who recognizes that Vader becomes more powerful in the new comics that are canonical.
    So even if we still have to consider canonical these mini interviews to Lucas (who at other times contradicted himself on these issues) there is no doubt that canonically Vader is more powerful than the Anakin of episode 3. Vader is canonically the most powerful Sith along with Palpatine. And even in the new canon there are suggestions that put him above all at all. In this canonical material it is talked about by Kylo Ren in reference to Vader and it says:

    ''Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi and Sith, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy.''
    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

    Another canonical proof that makes it clear that Vader is more powerful than Anakin in episode 3 is this, where Vader muses that his injuries increased his connection to the Force, suggesting that he has become more powerful than he was as Anakin:

    ''VADER COMPLETED HIS MEDITATION and opened his eyes. His pale, flame-savaged face stared back at him from out of the reflective black surface of his pressurized meditation chamber. Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arm, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.
    He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight''.
    -- Lords Of The Sith

    Vader is Palpatine's most powerful emissary and a champion of the Dark Side:

    ''But the younger Skywalker’s life changed forever when he learned that not only was Anakin in fact a Jedi Knight who fought in the Clone Wars, but also that he subsequently became Darth Vader, the Emperor’s most feared and powerful emissary, and a champion of the dark side of the Force.''

    Palpatine describes Vader's powers as unparalleled:

    “Come, Darth Vader, you of all people should accept that some are born for greatness. That some are larger than life.”

    Vader remained silent.

    “Yes, Lord Vader.” Sidious softened his tone. “You are a true Sith, Lord Vader. Your dedication is unerring and your powers unparalleled. Perhaps, however, you are under the misimpression that only Sith and Jedi have trials to pass.”
    -- Tarkin
    Skyguy501 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    The older hero's would of been fine had it not been for unnecessary nerfs, also Vader needs a serious buff if this is how anakin is going to be portrayed

    It has been established that Anakin would have been a much more powerful Force and lightsaber-user withoutthe suit. It makes sense that he is stronger than Vader, since the Vader's suit is very detrimental to his abilities.

    False. All of it.

    Actually it is accurate. Vader is a more polished/mature/calculating warrior, but he lost a lot of his inherent power after Mustafar. The suit does not add to his abilities but instead makes him more clunky. Sidious did this on purpose even though he had the option of giving him a suit more like Grievous.

    The suit means nothing. 19 years between RotS and ANH and Vader now grows in the force through dark side teachings. Anakin Skywalker did not become weaker in order to dominate the galaxy with Palpatine, but stronger, and continued to grow in strength as Darth Vader.

    Let's ask the guy who created Star Wars... According to George Lucas in a 2005 interview with Vanity Fair, Anakin’s potential strength was twice that of Sidious', until he was burned:

    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor… So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

    Sidious acknowledges that Anakin is more powerful than he is in several sources, but when he was burned on Mustafar, according to George Lucas, he lost approximately 60% of his force power

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity before Mustafar = 2x Sidious

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity after Mustafar = .8x Sidious

    And here is more of the same from George Lucas:

    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

    "The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

    This. All of this is fact. This has been common knowledge way before Disney bought Lucasfilm Ltd. It also makes sense why the Emperor was eager to replace Vader with Luke. He’s younger, more agile, and more importantly, powerful. Everything he set up in Episode VI was so that he got exactly what he wanted. Except... because he’d gotten so used to getting what he wanted, his plans were undermined when Luke didn’t give in. Blinded by his rage and thirst for vengeance against Luke, it allowed Vader that one moment to overthrow his master, save his son and fulfill the prophesy of the Chosen One.

    Palpatine want Luke because is a Skywalker the son of Vader, and he hope he can obtain a Vader 2.0. But this not mean that Luke in episode 6 was already more powerful than Vader or that Vader wasn't more powerful than Anakin in episode 3 as i prove with canon statements above. Seem that some of you just underestimate Vader too much, i suggest to read this:

    https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/darth-vader-respect-thread-canon-1872153/

    All I am talking about is force potential - inherent force capacity. Not training, tactics, experience, skill, technique, knowledge, etc.

    This clearly states that Sidious has more force capacity than Vader after Mustafar. This clearly states that Luke could realize the potential that pre injury Vader could have, which indicates his force potential is much higher than post Mustafar Vader. And it clearly indicates that Vader lost 60% of his potential.

    That's it. Just the inherent force capacity.

    Everything else is not as clear and depends on what you allow into your own cannon or not. If it's just George then its that. If it's what Disney calls cannon then its that. And if it's all of it including the EU then that's fine too. It is an interesting question to wonder who would win. Episode 3 Anakin or Rogue One Vader. I'd personally still put my bets on Anakin, but you can do as you wish, and I won't tell you you are wrong, just that I have a different view.

    No you said that anakin in episode 3 is stronger than Vader and this not true in a Canon perspective for George or for Disney. In both Canon Vader is stronger than anakin in episode 3. Luke have the potential to be what Anakin would be without the injuries, but from what we see in this new Canon he don't seem to have surpassed Vader. In episode 6 Luke wasn't already stronger than Vader, he had the potential to surpass him, but he win only because Vader wasn't interested to kill him and because he fall in rage. Palpatine after Mustafar is stronger in the old Canon, while in the new Canon it is not clear as my Canon statements prove, indeed Vader
    Is stated as the most powerful Sith, suggesting that he is above Palpatine in power or potential:

    "Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

    But what it is truly Canon is that Vader killed Palpatine and have in himself still the possibility to kill him, indeed Palpatine know this. Paul S. Kemp stated that Palpatine deep down knows Vader's true potential and is wary of it. This would indicate that, in spite of his injuries, Vader's potential is still very high:

    "Somewhere in the back of Palpatine's mind, he knows what Vader's potential is. He feels he may be wrong, but he is wary of it. So he's very interested in determining his ability to manipulate Vader and testing his loyalty and assuring himself that this tiger that he holds by the tail is going to stay that way."

    -- Insider 157

    Definitely seem that you underestimate Vader in general.
  • awakespace
    939 posts Member
    edited February 24
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    The older hero's would of been fine had it not been for unnecessary nerfs, also Vader needs a serious buff if this is how anakin is going to be portrayed

    It has been established that Anakin would have been a much more powerful Force and lightsaber-user withoutthe suit. It makes sense that he is stronger than Vader, since the Vader's suit is very detrimental to his abilities.

    False. All of it.

    Actually it is accurate. Vader is a more polished/mature/calculating warrior, but he lost a lot of his inherent power after Mustafar. The suit does not add to his abilities but instead makes him more clunky. Sidious did this on purpose even though he had the option of giving him a suit more like Grievous.

    The suit means nothing. 19 years between RotS and ANH and Vader now grows in the force through dark side teachings. Anakin Skywalker did not become weaker in order to dominate the galaxy with Palpatine, but stronger, and continued to grow in strength as Darth Vader.

    Let's ask the guy who created Star Wars... According to George Lucas in a 2005 interview with Vanity Fair, Anakin’s potential strength was twice that of Sidious', until he was burned:

    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor… So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

    Sidious acknowledges that Anakin is more powerful than he is in several sources, but when he was burned on Mustafar, according to George Lucas, he lost approximately 60% of his force power

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity before Mustafar = 2x Sidious

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity after Mustafar = .8x Sidious

    And here is more of the same from George Lucas:

    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

    "The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

    Wait, wait.. sorry, without offense but you are manipulating all this or misurandestand all this. Vader with the suit is still more powerful than Anakin in episode 3.

    Lucas in this interview only says that Vader without his wounds would become even more powerful, he is not saying at all that he is not powerful or that he is not more powerful than Anakin in episode 3.
    Vader's potential continued to grow after the Mustafar incident. And it is Palpatine himself who recognizes that Vader becomes more powerful in the new comics that are canonical.
    So even if we still have to consider canonical these mini interviews to Lucas (who at other times contradicted himself on these issues) there is no doubt that canonically Vader is more powerful than the Anakin of episode 3. Vader is canonically the most powerful Sith along with Palpatine. And even in the new canon there are suggestions that put him above all at all. In this canonical material it is talked about by Kylo Ren in reference to Vader and it says:

    ''Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi and Sith, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy.''
    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

    Another canonical proof that makes it clear that Vader is more powerful than Anakin in episode 3 is this, where Vader muses that his injuries increased his connection to the Force, suggesting that he has become more powerful than he was as Anakin:

    ''VADER COMPLETED HIS MEDITATION and opened his eyes. His pale, flame-savaged face stared back at him from out of the reflective black surface of his pressurized meditation chamber. Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arm, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.
    He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight''.
    -- Lords Of The Sith

    Vader is Palpatine's most powerful emissary and a champion of the Dark Side:

    ''But the younger Skywalker’s life changed forever when he learned that not only was Anakin in fact a Jedi Knight who fought in the Clone Wars, but also that he subsequently became Darth Vader, the Emperor’s most feared and powerful emissary, and a champion of the dark side of the Force.''

    Palpatine describes Vader's powers as unparalleled:

    “Come, Darth Vader, you of all people should accept that some are born for greatness. That some are larger than life.”

    Vader remained silent.

    “Yes, Lord Vader.” Sidious softened his tone. “You are a true Sith, Lord Vader. Your dedication is unerring and your powers unparalleled. Perhaps, however, you are under the misimpression that only Sith and Jedi have trials to pass.”
    -- Tarkin
    Skyguy501 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    The older hero's would of been fine had it not been for unnecessary nerfs, also Vader needs a serious buff if this is how anakin is going to be portrayed

    It has been established that Anakin would have been a much more powerful Force and lightsaber-user withoutthe suit. It makes sense that he is stronger than Vader, since the Vader's suit is very detrimental to his abilities.

    False. All of it.

    Actually it is accurate. Vader is a more polished/mature/calculating warrior, but he lost a lot of his inherent power after Mustafar. The suit does not add to his abilities but instead makes him more clunky. Sidious did this on purpose even though he had the option of giving him a suit more like Grievous.

    The suit means nothing. 19 years between RotS and ANH and Vader now grows in the force through dark side teachings. Anakin Skywalker did not become weaker in order to dominate the galaxy with Palpatine, but stronger, and continued to grow in strength as Darth Vader.

    Let's ask the guy who created Star Wars... According to George Lucas in a 2005 interview with Vanity Fair, Anakin’s potential strength was twice that of Sidious', until he was burned:

    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor… So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

    Sidious acknowledges that Anakin is more powerful than he is in several sources, but when he was burned on Mustafar, according to George Lucas, he lost approximately 60% of his force power

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity before Mustafar = 2x Sidious

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity after Mustafar = .8x Sidious

    And here is more of the same from George Lucas:

    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

    "The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

    This. All of this is fact. This has been common knowledge way before Disney bought Lucasfilm Ltd. It also makes sense why the Emperor was eager to replace Vader with Luke. He’s younger, more agile, and more importantly, powerful. Everything he set up in Episode VI was so that he got exactly what he wanted. Except... because he’d gotten so used to getting what he wanted, his plans were undermined when Luke didn’t give in. Blinded by his rage and thirst for vengeance against Luke, it allowed Vader that one moment to overthrow his master, save his son and fulfill the prophesy of the Chosen One.

    Palpatine want Luke because is a Skywalker the son of Vader, and he hope he can obtain a Vader 2.0. But this not mean that Luke in episode 6 was already more powerful than Vader or that Vader wasn't more powerful than Anakin in episode 3 as i prove with canon statements above. Seem that some of you just underestimate Vader too much, i suggest to read this:

    https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/darth-vader-respect-thread-canon-1872153/

    All I am talking about is force potential - inherent force capacity. Not training, tactics, experience, skill, technique, knowledge, etc.

    This clearly states that Sidious has more force capacity than Vader after Mustafar. This clearly states that Luke could realize the potential that pre injury Vader could have, which indicates his force potential is much higher than post Mustafar Vader. And it clearly indicates that Vader lost 60% of his potential.

    That's it. Just the inherent force capacity.

    Everything else is not as clear and depends on what you allow into your own cannon or not. If it's just George then its that. If it's what Disney calls cannon then its that. And if it's all of it including the EU then that's fine too. It is an interesting question to wonder who would win. Episode 3 Anakin or Rogue One Vader. I'd personally still put my bets on Anakin, but you can do as you wish, and I won't tell you you are wrong, just that I have a different view.

    No you said that anakin in episode 3 is stronger than Vader and this not true in a Canon perspective for George or for Disney. In both Canon Vader is stronger than anakin in episode 3. Luke have the potential to be what Anakin would be without the injuries, but from what we see in this new Canon he don't seem to have surpassed Vader. In episode 6 Luke wasn't already stronger than Vader, he had the potential to surpass him, but he win only because Vader wasn't interested to kill him and because he fall in rage. Palpatine after Mustafar is stronger in the old Canon, while in the new Canon it is not clear as my Canon statements prove, indeed Vader
    Is stated as the most powerful Sith, suggesting that he is above Palpatine in power or potential:

    "Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

    But what it is truly Canon is that Vader killed Palpatine and have in himself still the possibility to kill him, indeed Palpatine know this. Paul S. Kemp stated that Palpatine deep down knows Vader's true potential and is wary of it. This would indicate that, in spite of his injuries, Vader's potential is still very high:

    "Somewhere in the back of Palpatine's mind, he knows what Vader's potential is. He feels he may be wrong, but he is wary of it. So he's very interested in determining his ability to manipulate Vader and testing his loyalty and assuring himself that this tiger that he holds by the tail is going to stay that way."

    -- Insider 157

    Definitely seem that you underestimate Vader in general.

    "No you said that anakin in episode 3 is stronger than Vader and this not true in a Canon perspective for George or for Disney. "

    I just reread everything I wrote and don't see where I said that... if I did, my mistake. What I was trying to show is that according to Lucas he lost 60% of his force potential after Mustafar - this isn't a matter of debate. Again I do personally think Anakin is stronger in ROTS than Vader ever is, but this is just an opinion based on the sources I respect as canon and is up to you to determine for yourself.

    " Luke have the potential to be what Anakin would be without the injuries"

    Yes, this is what I was trying to communicate all along - Anakin lost potential after the injuries

    "but from what we see in this new Canon he don't seem to have surpassed Vader"


    Again I'm was never claiming that I was the authority on who would win in a fight, I was talking about force potential.

    And again the new canon contradicts the old quite frequently. For instance Episode 8 alone does this a lot. e.g. Luke's character is completely different - as mark hammil says, "that's not my Luke Skywalker, he's Jake Skywalker."

    ""Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary"


    I think this is in accordance with what I've been saying, Anakin had incredible force potential, but the injuries on Mustar decreased this significantly. I don't think Anakin's injuries would affect his bloodline/****... And even if they did; Padme was pregnant before the injuries. I'm not sure of what you are trying to indicate with this quote...

    "Somewhere in the back of Palpatine's mind, he knows what Vader's potential is. He feels he may be wrong, but he is wary of it. So he's very interested in determining his ability to manipulate Vader and testing his loyalty and assuring himself that this tiger that he holds by the tail is going to stay that way."

    This isn't really specific. A baby with an Uzi is actually quite dangerous and has the potential to kill you. Kemp is not making it clear what type of potential he is referring to. He could easily be referring to Vader's potential to be treacherous.

    Lucas said Vader had 200% the force potential of Sidious before Mustafar, and 80% the force potential of Sidious after Mustafar. That is a clear and direct statement addressing the topic.

    All in all, I'm just pointing out what Lucas said
  • BlazinSVK
    28 posts Member
    edited February 24
    Do you know what's the biggest irony? After this update suddenly all onlydarkside "pros" (especially those only Boba, Bossk, Phasma and Iden cancer players) will not quit after they will be added to light side team, pathetic.

    Thanks for the Pull ability. I will spare it for Boba and running Maul players.
    I'm a HvV player, member of TKS clan.
    My youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSUxQWOhVYYnvM6lHfuWNzQ
    Twitch: twitch.tv/drunkensailorsk
  • awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    The older hero's would of been fine had it not been for unnecessary nerfs, also Vader needs a serious buff if this is how anakin is going to be portrayed

    It has been established that Anakin would have been a much more powerful Force and lightsaber-user withoutthe suit. It makes sense that he is stronger than Vader, since the Vader's suit is very detrimental to his abilities.

    False. All of it.

    Actually it is accurate. Vader is a more polished/mature/calculating warrior, but he lost a lot of his inherent power after Mustafar. The suit does not add to his abilities but instead makes him more clunky. Sidious did this on purpose even though he had the option of giving him a suit more like Grievous.

    The suit means nothing. 19 years between RotS and ANH and Vader now grows in the force through dark side teachings. Anakin Skywalker did not become weaker in order to dominate the galaxy with Palpatine, but stronger, and continued to grow in strength as Darth Vader.

    Let's ask the guy who created Star Wars... According to George Lucas in a 2005 interview with Vanity Fair, Anakin’s potential strength was twice that of Sidious', until he was burned:

    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor… So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

    Sidious acknowledges that Anakin is more powerful than he is in several sources, but when he was burned on Mustafar, according to George Lucas, he lost approximately 60% of his force power

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity before Mustafar = 2x Sidious

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity after Mustafar = .8x Sidious

    And here is more of the same from George Lucas:

    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

    "The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

    Wait, wait.. sorry, without offense but you are manipulating all this or misurandestand all this. Vader with the suit is still more powerful than Anakin in episode 3.

    Lucas in this interview only says that Vader without his wounds would become even more powerful, he is not saying at all that he is not powerful or that he is not more powerful than Anakin in episode 3.
    Vader's potential continued to grow after the Mustafar incident. And it is Palpatine himself who recognizes that Vader becomes more powerful in the new comics that are canonical.
    So even if we still have to consider canonical these mini interviews to Lucas (who at other times contradicted himself on these issues) there is no doubt that canonically Vader is more powerful than the Anakin of episode 3. Vader is canonically the most powerful Sith along with Palpatine. And even in the new canon there are suggestions that put him above all at all. In this canonical material it is talked about by Kylo Ren in reference to Vader and it says:

    ''Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi and Sith, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy.''
    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

    Another canonical proof that makes it clear that Vader is more powerful than Anakin in episode 3 is this, where Vader muses that his injuries increased his connection to the Force, suggesting that he has become more powerful than he was as Anakin:

    ''VADER COMPLETED HIS MEDITATION and opened his eyes. His pale, flame-savaged face stared back at him from out of the reflective black surface of his pressurized meditation chamber. Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arm, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.
    He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight''.
    -- Lords Of The Sith

    Vader is Palpatine's most powerful emissary and a champion of the Dark Side:

    ''But the younger Skywalker’s life changed forever when he learned that not only was Anakin in fact a Jedi Knight who fought in the Clone Wars, but also that he subsequently became Darth Vader, the Emperor’s most feared and powerful emissary, and a champion of the dark side of the Force.''

    Palpatine describes Vader's powers as unparalleled:

    “Come, Darth Vader, you of all people should accept that some are born for greatness. That some are larger than life.”

    Vader remained silent.

    “Yes, Lord Vader.” Sidious softened his tone. “You are a true Sith, Lord Vader. Your dedication is unerring and your powers unparalleled. Perhaps, however, you are under the misimpression that only Sith and Jedi have trials to pass.”
    -- Tarkin
    Skyguy501 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    The older hero's would of been fine had it not been for unnecessary nerfs, also Vader needs a serious buff if this is how anakin is going to be portrayed

    It has been established that Anakin would have been a much more powerful Force and lightsaber-user withoutthe suit. It makes sense that he is stronger than Vader, since the Vader's suit is very detrimental to his abilities.

    False. All of it.

    Actually it is accurate. Vader is a more polished/mature/calculating warrior, but he lost a lot of his inherent power after Mustafar. The suit does not add to his abilities but instead makes him more clunky. Sidious did this on purpose even though he had the option of giving him a suit more like Grievous.

    The suit means nothing. 19 years between RotS and ANH and Vader now grows in the force through dark side teachings. Anakin Skywalker did not become weaker in order to dominate the galaxy with Palpatine, but stronger, and continued to grow in strength as Darth Vader.

    Let's ask the guy who created Star Wars... According to George Lucas in a 2005 interview with Vanity Fair, Anakin’s potential strength was twice that of Sidious', until he was burned:

    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor… So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

    Sidious acknowledges that Anakin is more powerful than he is in several sources, but when he was burned on Mustafar, according to George Lucas, he lost approximately 60% of his force power

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity before Mustafar = 2x Sidious

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity after Mustafar = .8x Sidious

    And here is more of the same from George Lucas:

    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

    "The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

    This. All of this is fact. This has been common knowledge way before Disney bought Lucasfilm Ltd. It also makes sense why the Emperor was eager to replace Vader with Luke. He’s younger, more agile, and more importantly, powerful. Everything he set up in Episode VI was so that he got exactly what he wanted. Except... because he’d gotten so used to getting what he wanted, his plans were undermined when Luke didn’t give in. Blinded by his rage and thirst for vengeance against Luke, it allowed Vader that one moment to overthrow his master, save his son and fulfill the prophesy of the Chosen One.

    Palpatine want Luke because is a Skywalker the son of Vader, and he hope he can obtain a Vader 2.0. But this not mean that Luke in episode 6 was already more powerful than Vader or that Vader wasn't more powerful than Anakin in episode 3 as i prove with canon statements above. Seem that some of you just underestimate Vader too much, i suggest to read this:

    https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/darth-vader-respect-thread-canon-1872153/

    All I am talking about is force potential - inherent force capacity. Not training, tactics, experience, skill, technique, knowledge, etc.

    This clearly states that Sidious has more force capacity than Vader after Mustafar. This clearly states that Luke could realize the potential that pre injury Vader could have, which indicates his force potential is much higher than post Mustafar Vader. And it clearly indicates that Vader lost 60% of his potential.

    That's it. Just the inherent force capacity.

    Everything else is not as clear and depends on what you allow into your own cannon or not. If it's just George then its that. If it's what Disney calls cannon then its that. And if it's all of it including the EU then that's fine too. It is an interesting question to wonder who would win. Episode 3 Anakin or Rogue One Vader. I'd personally still put my bets on Anakin, but you can do as you wish, and I won't tell you you are wrong, just that I have a different view.

    No you said that anakin in episode 3 is stronger than Vader and this not true in a Canon perspective for George or for Disney. In both Canon Vader is stronger than anakin in episode 3. Luke have the potential to be what Anakin would be without the injuries, but from what we see in this new Canon he don't seem to have surpassed Vader. In episode 6 Luke wasn't already stronger than Vader, he had the potential to surpass him, but he win only because Vader wasn't interested to kill him and because he fall in rage. Palpatine after Mustafar is stronger in the old Canon, while in the new Canon it is not clear as my Canon statements prove, indeed Vader
    Is stated as the most powerful Sith, suggesting that he is above Palpatine in power or potential:

    "Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

    But what it is truly Canon is that Vader killed Palpatine and have in himself still the possibility to kill him, indeed Palpatine know this. Paul S. Kemp stated that Palpatine deep down knows Vader's true potential and is wary of it. This would indicate that, in spite of his injuries, Vader's potential is still very high:

    "Somewhere in the back of Palpatine's mind, he knows what Vader's potential is. He feels he may be wrong, but he is wary of it. So he's very interested in determining his ability to manipulate Vader and testing his loyalty and assuring himself that this tiger that he holds by the tail is going to stay that way."

    -- Insider 157

    Definitely seem that you underestimate Vader in general.

    "No you said that anakin in episode 3 is stronger than Vader and this not true in a Canon perspective for George or for Disney. "

    I just reread everything I wrote and don't see where I said that... if I did, my mistake. What I was trying to show is that according to Lucas he lost 60% of his force potential after Mustafar - this isn't a matter of debate. Again I do personally think Anakin is stronger in ROTS than Vader ever is, but this is just an opinion based on the sources I respect as canon and is up to you to determine for yourself.

    " Luke have the potential to be what Anakin would be without the injuries"

    Yes, this is what I was trying to communicate all along - Anakin lost potential after the injuries

    "but from what we see in this new Canon he don't seem to have surpassed Vader"


    Again I'm was never claiming that I was the authority on who would win in a fight, I was talking about force potential.

    And again the new canon contradicts the old quite frequently. For instance Episode 8 alone does this a lot. e.g. Luke's character is completely different - as mark hammil says, "that's not my Luke Skywalker, he's Jake Skywalker."

    ""Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary"


    I think this is in accordance with what I've been saying, Anakin had incredible force potential, but the injuries on Mustar decreased this significantly. I don't think Anakin's injuries would affect his bloodline/****... And even if they did; Padme was pregnant before the injuries. I'm not sure of what you are trying to indicate with this quote...

    "Somewhere in the back of Palpatine's mind, he knows what Vader's potential is. He feels he may be wrong, but he is wary of it. So he's very interested in determining his ability to manipulate Vader and testing his loyalty and assuring himself that this tiger that he holds by the tail is going to stay that way."

    This isn't really specific. A baby with an Uzi is actually quite dangerous and has the potential to kill you. Kemp is not making it clear what type of potential he is referring to. He could easily be referring to Vader's potential to be treacherous.

    Lucas said Vader had 200% the force potential of Sidious before Mustafar, and 80% the force potential of Sidious after Mustafar. That is a clear and direct statement addressing the topic.

    All in all, I'm just pointing out what Lucas said

    Sorry but You are still continue to say that for you Anakin in ep. 3 is stronger than Vader, that is not true from a CANON perspective. Vader is stronger than Anakin in episode 3.

    Yes he lose potential after Mustafar, the potential to become even more powerful than what he became, but he don't because weaker. Lose potential don't mean lose power.

    "Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary"

    Here you miss the central point that is: the mist powerful jedi AND SITH.
    The sith is Vader, and here is called the most powerful Sith. No interpretations.

    Kemp is clearly referring to the fact that Palpatine is aware of the power of Vader again no interpretations.

    What Lucas said on Vanity Fair contradict what he said in several other occasions. But is not the argument, the argument is that Vader is stronger than anakin in episode 3 that is a Canon fact.
  • ZmanGames wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    The older hero's would of been fine had it not been for unnecessary nerfs, also Vader needs a serious buff if this is how anakin is going to be portrayed

    It has been established that Anakin would have been a much more powerful Force and lightsaber-user withoutthe suit. It makes sense that he is stronger than Vader, since the Vader's suit is very detrimental to his abilities.

    False. All of it.

    Actually it is accurate. Vader is a more polished/mature/calculating warrior, but he lost a lot of his inherent power after Mustafar. The suit does not add to his abilities but instead makes him more clunky. Sidious did this on purpose even though he had the option of giving him a suit more like Grievous.

    The suit means nothing. 19 years between RotS and ANH and Vader now grows in the force through dark side teachings. Anakin Skywalker did not become weaker in order to dominate the galaxy with Palpatine, but stronger, and continued to grow in strength as Darth Vader.

    Let's ask the guy who created Star Wars... According to George Lucas in a 2005 interview with Vanity Fair, Anakin’s potential strength was twice that of Sidious', until he was burned:

    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor… So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

    Sidious acknowledges that Anakin is more powerful than he is in several sources, but when he was burned on Mustafar, according to George Lucas, he lost approximately 60% of his force power

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity before Mustafar = 2x Sidious

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity after Mustafar = .8x Sidious

    And here is more of the same from George Lucas:

    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

    "The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

    Wait, wait.. sorry, without offense but you are manipulating all this or misurandestand all this. Vader with the suit is still more powerful than Anakin in episode 3.

    Lucas in this interview only says that Vader without his wounds would become even more powerful, he is not saying at all that he is not powerful or that he is not more powerful than Anakin in episode 3.
    Vader's potential continued to grow after the Mustafar incident. And it is Palpatine himself who recognizes that Vader becomes more powerful in the new comics that are canonical.
    So even if we still have to consider canonical these mini interviews to Lucas (who at other times contradicted himself on these issues) there is no doubt that canonically Vader is more powerful than the Anakin of episode 3. Vader is canonically the most powerful Sith along with Palpatine. And even in the new canon there are suggestions that put him above all at all. In this canonical material it is talked about by Kylo Ren in reference to Vader and it says:

    ''Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi and Sith, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy.''
    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

    Another canonical proof that makes it clear that Vader is more powerful than Anakin in episode 3 is this, where Vader muses that his injuries increased his connection to the Force, suggesting that he has become more powerful than he was as Anakin:

    ''VADER COMPLETED HIS MEDITATION and opened his eyes. His pale, flame-savaged face stared back at him from out of the reflective black surface of his pressurized meditation chamber. Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arm, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.
    He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight''.
    -- Lords Of The Sith

    Vader is Palpatine's most powerful emissary and a champion of the Dark Side:

    ''But the younger Skywalker’s life changed forever when he learned that not only was Anakin in fact a Jedi Knight who fought in the Clone Wars, but also that he subsequently became Darth Vader, the Emperor’s most feared and powerful emissary, and a champion of the dark side of the Force.''

    Palpatine describes Vader's powers as unparalleled:

    “Come, Darth Vader, you of all people should accept that some are born for greatness. That some are larger than life.”

    Vader remained silent.

    “Yes, Lord Vader.” Sidious softened his tone. “You are a true Sith, Lord Vader. Your dedication is unerring and your powers unparalleled. Perhaps, however, you are under the misimpression that only Sith and Jedi have trials to pass.”
    -- Tarkin
    Skyguy501 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    The older hero's would of been fine had it not been for unnecessary nerfs, also Vader needs a serious buff if this is how anakin is going to be portrayed

    It has been established that Anakin would have been a much more powerful Force and lightsaber-user withoutthe suit. It makes sense that he is stronger than Vader, since the Vader's suit is very detrimental to his abilities.

    False. All of it.

    Actually it is accurate. Vader is a more polished/mature/calculating warrior, but he lost a lot of his inherent power after Mustafar. The suit does not add to his abilities but instead makes him more clunky. Sidious did this on purpose even though he had the option of giving him a suit more like Grievous.

    The suit means nothing. 19 years between RotS and ANH and Vader now grows in the force through dark side teachings. Anakin Skywalker did not become weaker in order to dominate the galaxy with Palpatine, but stronger, and continued to grow in strength as Darth Vader.

    Let's ask the guy who created Star Wars... According to George Lucas in a 2005 interview with Vanity Fair, Anakin’s potential strength was twice that of Sidious', until he was burned:

    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor… So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

    Sidious acknowledges that Anakin is more powerful than he is in several sources, but when he was burned on Mustafar, according to George Lucas, he lost approximately 60% of his force power

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity before Mustafar = 2x Sidious

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity after Mustafar = .8x Sidious

    And here is more of the same from George Lucas:

    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

    "The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

    This. All of this is fact. This has been common knowledge way before Disney bought Lucasfilm Ltd. It also makes sense why the Emperor was eager to replace Vader with Luke. He’s younger, more agile, and more importantly, powerful. Everything he set up in Episode VI was so that he got exactly what he wanted. Except... because he’d gotten so used to getting what he wanted, his plans were undermined when Luke didn’t give in. Blinded by his rage and thirst for vengeance against Luke, it allowed Vader that one moment to overthrow his master, save his son and fulfill the prophesy of the Chosen One.

    Palpatine want Luke because is a Skywalker the son of Vader, and he hope he can obtain a Vader 2.0. But this not mean that Luke in episode 6 was already more powerful than Vader or that Vader wasn't more powerful than Anakin in episode 3 as i prove with canon statements above. Seem that some of you just underestimate Vader too much, i suggest to read this:

    https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/darth-vader-respect-thread-canon-1872153/

    All I am talking about is force potential - inherent force capacity. Not training, tactics, experience, skill, technique, knowledge, etc.

    This clearly states that Sidious has more force capacity than Vader after Mustafar. This clearly states that Luke could realize the potential that pre injury Vader could have, which indicates his force potential is much higher than post Mustafar Vader. And it clearly indicates that Vader lost 60% of his potential.

    That's it. Just the inherent force capacity.

    Everything else is not as clear and depends on what you allow into your own cannon or not. If it's just George then its that. If it's what Disney calls cannon then its that. And if it's all of it including the EU then that's fine too. It is an interesting question to wonder who would win. Episode 3 Anakin or Rogue One Vader. I'd personally still put my bets on Anakin, but you can do as you wish, and I won't tell you you are wrong, just that I have a different view.

    But that's just potential, how good someone could have been doesn't mean they should be at that level in the game when they never reached it.

    IT'S A F***** GAME, JUST GET ALONG WITH IT, If you want to live out your comic dreams then read the comics!

    again it is a game so just get along with how its going to be, i dont care anymore for realism in this game, just as long i get my stuff i paid for when i bought the game, and i get what i was promised, god dammit, people arguing over powers, and long a*s stories about how Anakin is not as strong as he is as Vader? it doesn't matter because they will never go that far to make it as you want, since it is still, a game, which on the other hand also need to be told, that it is a SCI-FI thing, so it is not real, they can do whatever they want with their game, and George Lucas can say whatever he wants about anything to make fans or people go up aganist each other… just please, accept the fact that, ur discussion means nothing for the game itself, so go to the "other" section and have it there…
  • awakespace
    939 posts Member
    edited February 24
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    The older hero's would of been fine had it not been for unnecessary nerfs, also Vader needs a serious buff if this is how anakin is going to be portrayed

    It has been established that Anakin would have been a much more powerful Force and lightsaber-user withoutthe suit. It makes sense that he is stronger than Vader, since the Vader's suit is very detrimental to his abilities.

    False. All of it.

    Actually it is accurate. Vader is a more polished/mature/calculating warrior, but he lost a lot of his inherent power after Mustafar. The suit does not add to his abilities but instead makes him more clunky. Sidious did this on purpose even though he had the option of giving him a suit more like Grievous.

    The suit means nothing. 19 years between RotS and ANH and Vader now grows in the force through dark side teachings. Anakin Skywalker did not become weaker in order to dominate the galaxy with Palpatine, but stronger, and continued to grow in strength as Darth Vader.

    Let's ask the guy who created Star Wars... According to George Lucas in a 2005 interview with Vanity Fair, Anakin’s potential strength was twice that of Sidious', until he was burned:

    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor… So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

    Sidious acknowledges that Anakin is more powerful than he is in several sources, but when he was burned on Mustafar, according to George Lucas, he lost approximately 60% of his force power

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity before Mustafar = 2x Sidious

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity after Mustafar = .8x Sidious

    And here is more of the same from George Lucas:

    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

    "The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

    Wait, wait.. sorry, without offense but you are manipulating all this or misurandestand all this. Vader with the suit is still more powerful than Anakin in episode 3.

    Lucas in this interview only says that Vader without his wounds would become even more powerful, he is not saying at all that he is not powerful or that he is not more powerful than Anakin in episode 3.
    Vader's potential continued to grow after the Mustafar incident. And it is Palpatine himself who recognizes that Vader becomes more powerful in the new comics that are canonical.
    So even if we still have to consider canonical these mini interviews to Lucas (who at other times contradicted himself on these issues) there is no doubt that canonically Vader is more powerful than the Anakin of episode 3. Vader is canonically the most powerful Sith along with Palpatine. And even in the new canon there are suggestions that put him above all at all. In this canonical material it is talked about by Kylo Ren in reference to Vader and it says:

    ''Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi and Sith, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy.''
    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

    Another canonical proof that makes it clear that Vader is more powerful than Anakin in episode 3 is this, where Vader muses that his injuries increased his connection to the Force, suggesting that he has become more powerful than he was as Anakin:

    ''VADER COMPLETED HIS MEDITATION and opened his eyes. His pale, flame-savaged face stared back at him from out of the reflective black surface of his pressurized meditation chamber. Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arm, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.
    He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight''.
    -- Lords Of The Sith

    Vader is Palpatine's most powerful emissary and a champion of the Dark Side:

    ''But the younger Skywalker’s life changed forever when he learned that not only was Anakin in fact a Jedi Knight who fought in the Clone Wars, but also that he subsequently became Darth Vader, the Emperor’s most feared and powerful emissary, and a champion of the dark side of the Force.''

    Palpatine describes Vader's powers as unparalleled:

    “Come, Darth Vader, you of all people should accept that some are born for greatness. That some are larger than life.”

    Vader remained silent.

    “Yes, Lord Vader.” Sidious softened his tone. “You are a true Sith, Lord Vader. Your dedication is unerring and your powers unparalleled. Perhaps, however, you are under the misimpression that only Sith and Jedi have trials to pass.”
    -- Tarkin
    Skyguy501 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    The older hero's would of been fine had it not been for unnecessary nerfs, also Vader needs a serious buff if this is how anakin is going to be portrayed

    It has been established that Anakin would have been a much more powerful Force and lightsaber-user withoutthe suit. It makes sense that he is stronger than Vader, since the Vader's suit is very detrimental to his abilities.

    False. All of it.

    Actually it is accurate. Vader is a more polished/mature/calculating warrior, but he lost a lot of his inherent power after Mustafar. The suit does not add to his abilities but instead makes him more clunky. Sidious did this on purpose even though he had the option of giving him a suit more like Grievous.

    The suit means nothing. 19 years between RotS and ANH and Vader now grows in the force through dark side teachings. Anakin Skywalker did not become weaker in order to dominate the galaxy with Palpatine, but stronger, and continued to grow in strength as Darth Vader.

    Let's ask the guy who created Star Wars... According to George Lucas in a 2005 interview with Vanity Fair, Anakin’s potential strength was twice that of Sidious', until he was burned:

    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor… So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

    Sidious acknowledges that Anakin is more powerful than he is in several sources, but when he was burned on Mustafar, according to George Lucas, he lost approximately 60% of his force power

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity before Mustafar = 2x Sidious

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity after Mustafar = .8x Sidious

    And here is more of the same from George Lucas:

    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

    "The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

    This. All of this is fact. This has been common knowledge way before Disney bought Lucasfilm Ltd. It also makes sense why the Emperor was eager to replace Vader with Luke. He’s younger, more agile, and more importantly, powerful. Everything he set up in Episode VI was so that he got exactly what he wanted. Except... because he’d gotten so used to getting what he wanted, his plans were undermined when Luke didn’t give in. Blinded by his rage and thirst for vengeance against Luke, it allowed Vader that one moment to overthrow his master, save his son and fulfill the prophesy of the Chosen One.

    Palpatine want Luke because is a Skywalker the son of Vader, and he hope he can obtain a Vader 2.0. But this not mean that Luke in episode 6 was already more powerful than Vader or that Vader wasn't more powerful than Anakin in episode 3 as i prove with canon statements above. Seem that some of you just underestimate Vader too much, i suggest to read this:

    https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/darth-vader-respect-thread-canon-1872153/

    All I am talking about is force potential - inherent force capacity. Not training, tactics, experience, skill, technique, knowledge, etc.

    This clearly states that Sidious has more force capacity than Vader after Mustafar. This clearly states that Luke could realize the potential that pre injury Vader could have, which indicates his force potential is much higher than post Mustafar Vader. And it clearly indicates that Vader lost 60% of his potential.

    That's it. Just the inherent force capacity.

    Everything else is not as clear and depends on what you allow into your own cannon or not. If it's just George then its that. If it's what Disney calls cannon then its that. And if it's all of it including the EU then that's fine too. It is an interesting question to wonder who would win. Episode 3 Anakin or Rogue One Vader. I'd personally still put my bets on Anakin, but you can do as you wish, and I won't tell you you are wrong, just that I have a different view.

    No you said that anakin in episode 3 is stronger than Vader and this not true in a Canon perspective for George or for Disney. In both Canon Vader is stronger than anakin in episode 3. Luke have the potential to be what Anakin would be without the injuries, but from what we see in this new Canon he don't seem to have surpassed Vader. In episode 6 Luke wasn't already stronger than Vader, he had the potential to surpass him, but he win only because Vader wasn't interested to kill him and because he fall in rage. Palpatine after Mustafar is stronger in the old Canon, while in the new Canon it is not clear as my Canon statements prove, indeed Vader
    Is stated as the most powerful Sith, suggesting that he is above Palpatine in power or potential:

    "Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

    But what it is truly Canon is that Vader killed Palpatine and have in himself still the possibility to kill him, indeed Palpatine know this. Paul S. Kemp stated that Palpatine deep down knows Vader's true potential and is wary of it. This would indicate that, in spite of his injuries, Vader's potential is still very high:

    "Somewhere in the back of Palpatine's mind, he knows what Vader's potential is. He feels he may be wrong, but he is wary of it. So he's very interested in determining his ability to manipulate Vader and testing his loyalty and assuring himself that this tiger that he holds by the tail is going to stay that way."

    -- Insider 157

    Definitely seem that you underestimate Vader in general.

    "No you said that anakin in episode 3 is stronger than Vader and this not true in a Canon perspective for George or for Disney. "

    I just reread everything I wrote and don't see where I said that... if I did, my mistake. What I was trying to show is that according to Lucas he lost 60% of his force potential after Mustafar - this isn't a matter of debate. Again I do personally think Anakin is stronger in ROTS than Vader ever is, but this is just an opinion based on the sources I respect as canon and is up to you to determine for yourself.

    " Luke have the potential to be what Anakin would be without the injuries"

    Yes, this is what I was trying to communicate all along - Anakin lost potential after the injuries

    "but from what we see in this new Canon he don't seem to have surpassed Vader"


    Again I'm was never claiming that I was the authority on who would win in a fight, I was talking about force potential.

    And again the new canon contradicts the old quite frequently. For instance Episode 8 alone does this a lot. e.g. Luke's character is completely different - as mark hammil says, "that's not my Luke Skywalker, he's Jake Skywalker."

    ""Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary"


    I think this is in accordance with what I've been saying, Anakin had incredible force potential, but the injuries on Mustar decreased this significantly. I don't think Anakin's injuries would affect his bloodline/****... And even if they did; Padme was pregnant before the injuries. I'm not sure of what you are trying to indicate with this quote...

    "Somewhere in the back of Palpatine's mind, he knows what Vader's potential is. He feels he may be wrong, but he is wary of it. So he's very interested in determining his ability to manipulate Vader and testing his loyalty and assuring himself that this tiger that he holds by the tail is going to stay that way."

    This isn't really specific. A baby with an Uzi is actually quite dangerous and has the potential to kill you. Kemp is not making it clear what type of potential he is referring to. He could easily be referring to Vader's potential to be treacherous.

    Lucas said Vader had 200% the force potential of Sidious before Mustafar, and 80% the force potential of Sidious after Mustafar. That is a clear and direct statement addressing the topic.

    All in all, I'm just pointing out what Lucas said

    Sorry but You are still continue to say that for you Anakin in ep. 3 is stronger than Vader, that is not true from a CANON perspective. Vader is stronger than Anakin in episode 3.

    Yes he lose potential after Mustafar, the potential to become even more powerful than what he became, but he don't because weaker. Lose potential don't mean lose power.

    "Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary"

    Here you miss the central point that is: the mist powerful jedi AND SITH.
    The sith is Vader, and here is called the most powerful Sith. No interpretations.

    Kemp is clearly referring to the fact that Palpatine is aware of the power of Vader again no interpretations.

    What Lucas said on Vanity Fair contradict what he said in several other occasions. But is not the argument, the argument is that Vader is stronger than anakin in episode 3 that is a Canon fact.

    I think the whole question of what is canon now is a real issue for people because of the way the franchise has gone since Disney bought it. But even if you are saying that because Disney gave Lucas 4 billions dollars, that they are now in control of canon, and can even override what he wrote/said - I still haven't seen any proof of what you are claiming from what you have provided - all I see is your interpretation of words that are not specific - these quotes you keep referring to don't actually provide proof of what you are saying - and if you can't understand why, and give better sources, I don't think there is a point in continuing this conversation. You saying something is canon and then offering no solid back up is not going to convince me, sorry... And I'm not even claiming I'm right that Anakin in ROTS would win in a fight against post Mustafar Vader - it's just my sense of it. It's just what I gather from Lucas saying that when Vader fought Obi-Wan in ANH that they were basically shells of their former selves. So show me direct evidence or we can just happily have our own opinions on the matter. I'm only claiming facts base on what was directly said by Lucas that addresses this very specifically; which is that Vader lost 60% of his power potential after Mustafar - otherwise you are free to think what you want about which one actually reached a more powerful state.


  • awakespace
    939 posts Member
    edited February 24



    sorry double post

  • awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    The older hero's would of been fine had it not been for unnecessary nerfs, also Vader needs a serious buff if this is how anakin is going to be portrayed

    It has been established that Anakin would have been a much more powerful Force and lightsaber-user withoutthe suit. It makes sense that he is stronger than Vader, since the Vader's suit is very detrimental to his abilities.

    False. All of it.

    Actually it is accurate. Vader is a more polished/mature/calculating warrior, but he lost a lot of his inherent power after Mustafar. The suit does not add to his abilities but instead makes him more clunky. Sidious did this on purpose even though he had the option of giving him a suit more like Grievous.

    The suit means nothing. 19 years between RotS and ANH and Vader now grows in the force through dark side teachings. Anakin Skywalker did not become weaker in order to dominate the galaxy with Palpatine, but stronger, and continued to grow in strength as Darth Vader.

    Let's ask the guy who created Star Wars... According to George Lucas in a 2005 interview with Vanity Fair, Anakin’s potential strength was twice that of Sidious', until he was burned:

    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor… So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

    Sidious acknowledges that Anakin is more powerful than he is in several sources, but when he was burned on Mustafar, according to George Lucas, he lost approximately 60% of his force power

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity before Mustafar = 2x Sidious

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity after Mustafar = .8x Sidious

    And here is more of the same from George Lucas:

    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

    "The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

    Wait, wait.. sorry, without offense but you are manipulating all this or misurandestand all this. Vader with the suit is still more powerful than Anakin in episode 3.

    Lucas in this interview only says that Vader without his wounds would become even more powerful, he is not saying at all that he is not powerful or that he is not more powerful than Anakin in episode 3.
    Vader's potential continued to grow after the Mustafar incident. And it is Palpatine himself who recognizes that Vader becomes more powerful in the new comics that are canonical.
    So even if we still have to consider canonical these mini interviews to Lucas (who at other times contradicted himself on these issues) there is no doubt that canonically Vader is more powerful than the Anakin of episode 3. Vader is canonically the most powerful Sith along with Palpatine. And even in the new canon there are suggestions that put him above all at all. In this canonical material it is talked about by Kylo Ren in reference to Vader and it says:

    ''Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi and Sith, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy.''
    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

    Another canonical proof that makes it clear that Vader is more powerful than Anakin in episode 3 is this, where Vader muses that his injuries increased his connection to the Force, suggesting that he has become more powerful than he was as Anakin:

    ''VADER COMPLETED HIS MEDITATION and opened his eyes. His pale, flame-savaged face stared back at him from out of the reflective black surface of his pressurized meditation chamber. Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arm, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.
    He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight''.
    -- Lords Of The Sith

    Vader is Palpatine's most powerful emissary and a champion of the Dark Side:

    ''But the younger Skywalker’s life changed forever when he learned that not only was Anakin in fact a Jedi Knight who fought in the Clone Wars, but also that he subsequently became Darth Vader, the Emperor’s most feared and powerful emissary, and a champion of the dark side of the Force.''

    Palpatine describes Vader's powers as unparalleled:

    “Come, Darth Vader, you of all people should accept that some are born for greatness. That some are larger than life.”

    Vader remained silent.

    “Yes, Lord Vader.” Sidious softened his tone. “You are a true Sith, Lord Vader. Your dedication is unerring and your powers unparalleled. Perhaps, however, you are under the misimpression that only Sith and Jedi have trials to pass.”
    -- Tarkin
    Skyguy501 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    The older hero's would of been fine had it not been for unnecessary nerfs, also Vader needs a serious buff if this is how anakin is going to be portrayed

    It has been established that Anakin would have been a much more powerful Force and lightsaber-user withoutthe suit. It makes sense that he is stronger than Vader, since the Vader's suit is very detrimental to his abilities.

    False. All of it.

    Actually it is accurate. Vader is a more polished/mature/calculating warrior, but he lost a lot of his inherent power after Mustafar. The suit does not add to his abilities but instead makes him more clunky. Sidious did this on purpose even though he had the option of giving him a suit more like Grievous.

    The suit means nothing. 19 years between RotS and ANH and Vader now grows in the force through dark side teachings. Anakin Skywalker did not become weaker in order to dominate the galaxy with Palpatine, but stronger, and continued to grow in strength as Darth Vader.

    Let's ask the guy who created Star Wars... According to George Lucas in a 2005 interview with Vanity Fair, Anakin’s potential strength was twice that of Sidious', until he was burned:

    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor… So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

    Sidious acknowledges that Anakin is more powerful than he is in several sources, but when he was burned on Mustafar, according to George Lucas, he lost approximately 60% of his force power

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity before Mustafar = 2x Sidious

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity after Mustafar = .8x Sidious

    And here is more of the same from George Lucas:

    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

    "The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

    This. All of this is fact. This has been common knowledge way before Disney bought Lucasfilm Ltd. It also makes sense why the Emperor was eager to replace Vader with Luke. He’s younger, more agile, and more importantly, powerful. Everything he set up in Episode VI was so that he got exactly what he wanted. Except... because he’d gotten so used to getting what he wanted, his plans were undermined when Luke didn’t give in. Blinded by his rage and thirst for vengeance against Luke, it allowed Vader that one moment to overthrow his master, save his son and fulfill the prophesy of the Chosen One.

    Palpatine want Luke because is a Skywalker the son of Vader, and he hope he can obtain a Vader 2.0. But this not mean that Luke in episode 6 was already more powerful than Vader or that Vader wasn't more powerful than Anakin in episode 3 as i prove with canon statements above. Seem that some of you just underestimate Vader too much, i suggest to read this:

    https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/darth-vader-respect-thread-canon-1872153/

    All I am talking about is force potential - inherent force capacity. Not training, tactics, experience, skill, technique, knowledge, etc.

    This clearly states that Sidious has more force capacity than Vader after Mustafar. This clearly states that Luke could realize the potential that pre injury Vader could have, which indicates his force potential is much higher than post Mustafar Vader. And it clearly indicates that Vader lost 60% of his potential.

    That's it. Just the inherent force capacity.

    Everything else is not as clear and depends on what you allow into your own cannon or not. If it's just George then its that. If it's what Disney calls cannon then its that. And if it's all of it including the EU then that's fine too. It is an interesting question to wonder who would win. Episode 3 Anakin or Rogue One Vader. I'd personally still put my bets on Anakin, but you can do as you wish, and I won't tell you you are wrong, just that I have a different view.

    No you said that anakin in episode 3 is stronger than Vader and this not true in a Canon perspective for George or for Disney. In both Canon Vader is stronger than anakin in episode 3. Luke have the potential to be what Anakin would be without the injuries, but from what we see in this new Canon he don't seem to have surpassed Vader. In episode 6 Luke wasn't already stronger than Vader, he had the potential to surpass him, but he win only because Vader wasn't interested to kill him and because he fall in rage. Palpatine after Mustafar is stronger in the old Canon, while in the new Canon it is not clear as my Canon statements prove, indeed Vader
    Is stated as the most powerful Sith, suggesting that he is above Palpatine in power or potential:

    "Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

    But what it is truly Canon is that Vader killed Palpatine and have in himself still the possibility to kill him, indeed Palpatine know this. Paul S. Kemp stated that Palpatine deep down knows Vader's true potential and is wary of it. This would indicate that, in spite of his injuries, Vader's potential is still very high:

    "Somewhere in the back of Palpatine's mind, he knows what Vader's potential is. He feels he may be wrong, but he is wary of it. So he's very interested in determining his ability to manipulate Vader and testing his loyalty and assuring himself that this tiger that he holds by the tail is going to stay that way."

    -- Insider 157

    Definitely seem that you underestimate Vader in general.

    "No you said that anakin in episode 3 is stronger than Vader and this not true in a Canon perspective for George or for Disney. "

    I just reread everything I wrote and don't see where I said that... if I did, my mistake. What I was trying to show is that according to Lucas he lost 60% of his force potential after Mustafar - this isn't a matter of debate. Again I do personally think Anakin is stronger in ROTS than Vader ever is, but this is just an opinion based on the sources I respect as canon and is up to you to determine for yourself.

    " Luke have the potential to be what Anakin would be without the injuries"

    Yes, this is what I was trying to communicate all along - Anakin lost potential after the injuries

    "but from what we see in this new Canon he don't seem to have surpassed Vader"


    Again I'm was never claiming that I was the authority on who would win in a fight, I was talking about force potential.

    And again the new canon contradicts the old quite frequently. For instance Episode 8 alone does this a lot. e.g. Luke's character is completely different - as mark hammil says, "that's not my Luke Skywalker, he's Jake Skywalker."

    ""Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary"


    I think this is in accordance with what I've been saying, Anakin had incredible force potential, but the injuries on Mustar decreased this significantly. I don't think Anakin's injuries would affect his bloodline/****... And even if they did; Padme was pregnant before the injuries. I'm not sure of what you are trying to indicate with this quote...

    "Somewhere in the back of Palpatine's mind, he knows what Vader's potential is. He feels he may be wrong, but he is wary of it. So he's very interested in determining his ability to manipulate Vader and testing his loyalty and assuring himself that this tiger that he holds by the tail is going to stay that way."

    This isn't really specific. A baby with an Uzi is actually quite dangerous and has the potential to kill you. Kemp is not making it clear what type of potential he is referring to. He could easily be referring to Vader's potential to be treacherous.

    Lucas said Vader had 200% the force potential of Sidious before Mustafar, and 80% the force potential of Sidious after Mustafar. That is a clear and direct statement addressing the topic.

    All in all, I'm just pointing out what Lucas said

    Sorry but You are still continue to say that for you Anakin in ep. 3 is stronger than Vader, that is not true from a CANON perspective. Vader is stronger than Anakin in episode 3.

    Yes he lose potential after Mustafar, the potential to become even more powerful than what he became, but he don't because weaker. Lose potential don't mean lose power.

    "Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary"

    Here you miss the central point that is: the mist powerful jedi AND SITH.
    The sith is Vader, and here is called the most powerful Sith. No interpretations.

    Kemp is clearly referring to the fact that Palpatine is aware of the power of Vader again no interpretations.

    What Lucas said on Vanity Fair contradict what he said in several other occasions. But is not the argument, the argument is that Vader is stronger than anakin in episode 3 that is a Canon fact.

    I think the whole question of what is canon now is a real issue for people because of the way the franchise has gone since Disney bought it. But even if you are saying that because Disney gave Lucas 4 billions dollars, that they are now in control of canon, and can even override what he wrote/said - I still haven't seen any proof of what you are claiming from what you have provided - all I see is your interpretation of words that are not specific - these quotes you keep referring to don't actually provide proof of what you are saying - and if you can't understand why, and give better sources, I don't think there is a point in continuing this conversation. You saying something is canon and then offering no solid back up is not going to convince me, sorry... And I'm not even claiming I'm right that Anakin in ROTS would win in a fight against post Mustafar Vader - it's just my sense of it. It's just what I gather from Lucas saying that when Vader fought Obi-Wan in ANH that they were basically shells of their former selves. So show me direct evidence or we can just happily have our own opinions on the matter. I'm only claiming facts base on what was directly said by Lucas that addresses this very specifically; which is that Vader lost 60% of his power potential after Mustafar - otherwise you are free to think what you want about which one actually reached a more powerful state.


    Sorry but at this point you are the one that want ignore Canon facts. Disney don't change this fact, Vader was stronger than Anakin in EPISODE 3 for Lucas, but not stronger than a Anakin/Vader without injuries. I need to think that you don't have the capacity to read a statements? The statement I post are pretty clear, no opinions. In addition you ignore completely the link I post of the Vader respect thread where you can find several other Canon statements. Again in addition, Anakin don't show nothing more than Vader in the Canon, so it is pretty who is stronger. You continue to quote the fact that anakin lose 60% of his potential.. Then I need to insist that you misurandestand what mean lose potential. He lose the potential to become 200% of Palpatine, but he don't become weaker than what he was in episode 3. I hope that now it is clear.

    You want other directs canons statements? Go to read the Vader respect thread, or go to re-watch star wars rebels, where Vader said that for him Anakin Skywalker was weak (a clear sign that Vader know that he is more powerful than what once he was). Or go to read the Canon comic where Vader fight Anakin inside him, yes it is an interior fight, but Vader win.
  • DarthCapa2
    2794 posts Member
    edited February 25
    Yodamain wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    The older hero's would of been fine had it not been for unnecessary nerfs, also Vader needs a serious buff if this is how anakin is going to be portrayed

    It has been established that Anakin would have been a much more powerful Force and lightsaber-user withoutthe suit. It makes sense that he is stronger than Vader, since the Vader's suit is very detrimental to his abilities.

    False. All of it.

    Actually it is accurate. Vader is a more polished/mature/calculating warrior, but he lost a lot of his inherent power after Mustafar. The suit does not add to his abilities but instead makes him more clunky. Sidious did this on purpose even though he had the option of giving him a suit more like Grievous.

    The suit means nothing. 19 years between RotS and ANH and Vader now grows in the force through dark side teachings. Anakin Skywalker did not become weaker in order to dominate the galaxy with Palpatine, but stronger, and continued to grow in strength as Darth Vader.

    Let's ask the guy who created Star Wars... According to George Lucas in a 2005 interview with Vanity Fair, Anakin’s potential strength was twice that of Sidious', until he was burned:

    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor… So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

    Sidious acknowledges that Anakin is more powerful than he is in several sources, but when he was burned on Mustafar, according to George Lucas, he lost approximately 60% of his force power

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity before Mustafar = 2x Sidious

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity after Mustafar = .8x Sidious

    And here is more of the same from George Lucas:

    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

    "The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

    Wait, wait.. sorry, without offense but you are manipulating all this or misurandestand all this. Vader with the suit is still more powerful than Anakin in episode 3.

    Lucas in this interview only says that Vader without his wounds would become even more powerful, he is not saying at all that he is not powerful or that he is not more powerful than Anakin in episode 3.
    Vader's potential continued to grow after the Mustafar incident. And it is Palpatine himself who recognizes that Vader becomes more powerful in the new comics that are canonical.
    So even if we still have to consider canonical these mini interviews to Lucas (who at other times contradicted himself on these issues) there is no doubt that canonically Vader is more powerful than the Anakin of episode 3. Vader is canonically the most powerful Sith along with Palpatine. And even in the new canon there are suggestions that put him above all at all. In this canonical material it is talked about by Kylo Ren in reference to Vader and it says:

    ''Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi and Sith, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy.''
    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

    Another canonical proof that makes it clear that Vader is more powerful than Anakin in episode 3 is this, where Vader muses that his injuries increased his connection to the Force, suggesting that he has become more powerful than he was as Anakin:

    ''VADER COMPLETED HIS MEDITATION and opened his eyes. His pale, flame-savaged face stared back at him from out of the reflective black surface of his pressurized meditation chamber. Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arm, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.
    He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight''.
    -- Lords Of The Sith

    Vader is Palpatine's most powerful emissary and a champion of the Dark Side:

    ''But the younger Skywalker’s life changed forever when he learned that not only was Anakin in fact a Jedi Knight who fought in the Clone Wars, but also that he subsequently became Darth Vader, the Emperor’s most feared and powerful emissary, and a champion of the dark side of the Force.''

    Palpatine describes Vader's powers as unparalleled:

    “Come, Darth Vader, you of all people should accept that some are born for greatness. That some are larger than life.”

    Vader remained silent.

    “Yes, Lord Vader.” Sidious softened his tone. “You are a true Sith, Lord Vader. Your dedication is unerring and your powers unparalleled. Perhaps, however, you are under the misimpression that only Sith and Jedi have trials to pass.”
    -- Tarkin
    Skyguy501 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    The older hero's would of been fine had it not been for unnecessary nerfs, also Vader needs a serious buff if this is how anakin is going to be portrayed

    It has been established that Anakin would have been a much more powerful Force and lightsaber-user withoutthe suit. It makes sense that he is stronger than Vader, since the Vader's suit is very detrimental to his abilities.

    False. All of it.

    Actually it is accurate. Vader is a more polished/mature/calculating warrior, but he lost a lot of his inherent power after Mustafar. The suit does not add to his abilities but instead makes him more clunky. Sidious did this on purpose even though he had the option of giving him a suit more like Grievous.

    The suit means nothing. 19 years between RotS and ANH and Vader now grows in the force through dark side teachings. Anakin Skywalker did not become weaker in order to dominate the galaxy with Palpatine, but stronger, and continued to grow in strength as Darth Vader.

    Let's ask the guy who created Star Wars... According to George Lucas in a 2005 interview with Vanity Fair, Anakin’s potential strength was twice that of Sidious', until he was burned:

    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor… So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

    Sidious acknowledges that Anakin is more powerful than he is in several sources, but when he was burned on Mustafar, according to George Lucas, he lost approximately 60% of his force power

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity before Mustafar = 2x Sidious

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity after Mustafar = .8x Sidious

    And here is more of the same from George Lucas:

    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

    "The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

    This. All of this is fact. This has been common knowledge way before Disney bought Lucasfilm Ltd. It also makes sense why the Emperor was eager to replace Vader with Luke. He’s younger, more agile, and more importantly, powerful. Everything he set up in Episode VI was so that he got exactly what he wanted. Except... because he’d gotten so used to getting what he wanted, his plans were undermined when Luke didn’t give in. Blinded by his rage and thirst for vengeance against Luke, it allowed Vader that one moment to overthrow his master, save his son and fulfill the prophesy of the Chosen One.

    Palpatine want Luke because is a Skywalker the son of Vader, and he hope he can obtain a Vader 2.0. But this not mean that Luke in episode 6 was already more powerful than Vader or that Vader wasn't more powerful than Anakin in episode 3 as i prove with canon statements above. Seem that some of you just underestimate Vader too much, i suggest to read this:

    https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/darth-vader-respect-thread-canon-1872153/

    All I am talking about is force potential - inherent force capacity. Not training, tactics, experience, skill, technique, knowledge, etc.

    This clearly states that Sidious has more force capacity than Vader after Mustafar. This clearly states that Luke could realize the potential that pre injury Vader could have, which indicates his force potential is much higher than post Mustafar Vader. And it clearly indicates that Vader lost 60% of his potential.

    That's it. Just the inherent force capacity.

    Everything else is not as clear and depends on what you allow into your own cannon or not. If it's just George then its that. If it's what Disney calls cannon then its that. And if it's all of it including the EU then that's fine too. It is an interesting question to wonder who would win. Episode 3 Anakin or Rogue One Vader. I'd personally still put my bets on Anakin, but you can do as you wish, and I won't tell you you are wrong, just that I have a different view.

    No you said that anakin in episode 3 is stronger than Vader and this not true in a Canon perspective for George or for Disney. In both Canon Vader is stronger than anakin in episode 3. Luke have the potential to be what Anakin would be without the injuries, but from what we see in this new Canon he don't seem to have surpassed Vader. In episode 6 Luke wasn't already stronger than Vader, he had the potential to surpass him, but he win only because Vader wasn't interested to kill him and because he fall in rage. Palpatine after Mustafar is stronger in the old Canon, while in the new Canon it is not clear as my Canon statements prove, indeed Vader
    Is stated as the most powerful Sith, suggesting that he is above Palpatine in power or potential:

    "Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

    But what it is truly Canon is that Vader killed Palpatine and have in himself still the possibility to kill him, indeed Palpatine know this. Paul S. Kemp stated that Palpatine deep down knows Vader's true potential and is wary of it. This would indicate that, in spite of his injuries, Vader's potential is still very high:

    "Somewhere in the back of Palpatine's mind, he knows what Vader's potential is. He feels he may be wrong, but he is wary of it. So he's very interested in determining his ability to manipulate Vader and testing his loyalty and assuring himself that this tiger that he holds by the tail is going to stay that way."

    -- Insider 157

    Definitely seem that you underestimate Vader in general.

    "No you said that anakin in episode 3 is stronger than Vader and this not true in a Canon perspective for George or for Disney. "

    I just reread everything I wrote and don't see where I said that... if I did, my mistake. What I was trying to show is that according to Lucas he lost 60% of his force potential after Mustafar - this isn't a matter of debate. Again I do personally think Anakin is stronger in ROTS than Vader ever is, but this is just an opinion based on the sources I respect as canon and is up to you to determine for yourself.

    " Luke have the potential to be what Anakin would be without the injuries"

    Yes, this is what I was trying to communicate all along - Anakin lost potential after the injuries

    "but from what we see in this new Canon he don't seem to have surpassed Vader"


    Again I'm was never claiming that I was the authority on who would win in a fight, I was talking about force potential.

    And again the new canon contradicts the old quite frequently. For instance Episode 8 alone does this a lot. e.g. Luke's character is completely different - as mark hammil says, "that's not my Luke Skywalker, he's Jake Skywalker."

    ""Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary"


    I think this is in accordance with what I've been saying, Anakin had incredible force potential, but the injuries on Mustar decreased this significantly. I don't think Anakin's injuries would affect his bloodline/****... And even if they did; Padme was pregnant before the injuries. I'm not sure of what you are trying to indicate with this quote...

    "Somewhere in the back of Palpatine's mind, he knows what Vader's potential is. He feels he may be wrong, but he is wary of it. So he's very interested in determining his ability to manipulate Vader and testing his loyalty and assuring himself that this tiger that he holds by the tail is going to stay that way."

    This isn't really specific. A baby with an Uzi is actually quite dangerous and has the potential to kill you. Kemp is not making it clear what type of potential he is referring to. He could easily be referring to Vader's potential to be treacherous.

    Lucas said Vader had 200% the force potential of Sidious before Mustafar, and 80% the force potential of Sidious after Mustafar. That is a clear and direct statement addressing the topic.

    All in all, I'm just pointing out what Lucas said

    Sorry but You are still continue to say that for you Anakin in ep. 3 is stronger than Vader, that is not true from a CANON perspective. Vader is stronger than Anakin in episode 3.

    Yes he lose potential after Mustafar, the potential to become even more powerful than what he became, but he don't because weaker. Lose potential don't mean lose power.

    "Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary"

    Here you miss the central point that is: the mist powerful jedi AND SITH.
    The sith is Vader, and here is called the most powerful Sith. No interpretations.

    Kemp is clearly referring to the fact that Palpatine is aware of the power of Vader again no interpretations.

    What Lucas said on Vanity Fair contradict what he said in several other occasions. But is not the argument, the argument is that Vader is stronger than anakin in episode 3 that is a Canon fact.

    I think the whole question of what is canon now is a real issue for people because of the way the franchise has gone since Disney bought it. But even if you are saying that because Disney gave Lucas 4 billions dollars, that they are now in control of canon, and can even override what he wrote/said - I still haven't seen any proof of what you are claiming from what you have provided - all I see is your interpretation of words that are not specific - these quotes you keep referring to don't actually provide proof of what you are saying - and if you can't understand why, and give better sources, I don't think there is a point in continuing this conversation. You saying something is canon and then offering no solid back up is not going to convince me, sorry... And I'm not even claiming I'm right that Anakin in ROTS would win in a fight against post Mustafar Vader - it's just my sense of it. It's just what I gather from Lucas saying that when Vader fought Obi-Wan in ANH that they were basically shells of their former selves. So show me direct evidence or we can just happily have our own opinions on the matter. I'm only claiming facts base on what was directly said by Lucas that addresses this very specifically; which is that Vader lost 60% of his power potential after Mustafar - otherwise you are free to think what you want about which one actually reached a more powerful state.


    I agree with ep. 3 Anakin being much stronger than Vader in suit. It,s pretty much logical that Vader as a half robot wasn’t able to do the same things as a healthy Anakin. Both physically and mentally Anakin had his strength more controlled than Vader, as if his suit got too damaged he would lose a lot of energy for trying to breath. It’s also easy to say that Vader was much slower in fighting than Anakin, as it was clearly shown in the movies. Vader was very strong with the force but versus the power of Anakin it wouldn’t be a match.

    Also, everything that Disney provides of Star Wars content, are non canon. Just making sure that non of you actually thinks someone besides George Lucas himself is able to do canon Star Wars.

    Then you are wrong. Is Canon that Vader is suit is stronger than episode 3 anakin. This in Lucas Canon, and in Disney Canon. Your opinion don't matter on Canon facts.
  • Congratulations. After 16 months since launch, you are finally releasing Anakin Skywalker, one of the most significant characters in Star Wars history as a playable character in this cross-era game. I wondered what the new abilities would be since Obi-Wan, since they are limited; so they are a blend of other characters: Luke, Kylo-Ren, and Darth Vader choke...the same choke that is still broken, and still gives the user victim a rubber-band effect while in air...

    Wow, now with Anakin's debut it's almost like that miserable time with nothing of true significance being added to the game from around January 2018 to General Grievous' release never happened. Almost....
  • awakespace
    939 posts Member
    edited February 25
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    Yodamain wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    The older hero's would of been fine had it not been for unnecessary nerfs, also Vader needs a serious buff if this is how anakin is going to be portrayed

    It has been established that Anakin would have been a much more powerful Force and lightsaber-user withoutthe suit. It makes sense that he is stronger than Vader, since the Vader's suit is very detrimental to his abilities.

    False. All of it.

    Actually it is accurate. Vader is a more polished/mature/calculating warrior, but he lost a lot of his inherent power after Mustafar. The suit does not add to his abilities but instead makes him more clunky. Sidious did this on purpose even though he had the option of giving him a suit more like Grievous.

    The suit means nothing. 19 years between RotS and ANH and Vader now grows in the force through dark side teachings. Anakin Skywalker did not become weaker in order to dominate the galaxy with Palpatine, but stronger, and continued to grow in strength as Darth Vader.

    Let's ask the guy who created Star Wars... According to George Lucas in a 2005 interview with Vanity Fair, Anakin’s potential strength was twice that of Sidious', until he was burned:

    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor… So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

    Sidious acknowledges that Anakin is more powerful than he is in several sources, but when he was burned on Mustafar, according to George Lucas, he lost approximately 60% of his force power

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity before Mustafar = 2x Sidious

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity after Mustafar = .8x Sidious

    And here is more of the same from George Lucas:

    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

    "The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

    Wait, wait.. sorry, without offense but you are manipulating all this or misurandestand all this. Vader with the suit is still more powerful than Anakin in episode 3.

    Lucas in this interview only says that Vader without his wounds would become even more powerful, he is not saying at all that he is not powerful or that he is not more powerful than Anakin in episode 3.
    Vader's potential continued to grow after the Mustafar incident. And it is Palpatine himself who recognizes that Vader becomes more powerful in the new comics that are canonical.
    So even if we still have to consider canonical these mini interviews to Lucas (who at other times contradicted himself on these issues) there is no doubt that canonically Vader is more powerful than the Anakin of episode 3. Vader is canonically the most powerful Sith along with Palpatine. And even in the new canon there are suggestions that put him above all at all. In this canonical material it is talked about by Kylo Ren in reference to Vader and it says:

    ''Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi and Sith, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy.''
    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

    Another canonical proof that makes it clear that Vader is more powerful than Anakin in episode 3 is this, where Vader muses that his injuries increased his connection to the Force, suggesting that he has become more powerful than he was as Anakin:

    ''VADER COMPLETED HIS MEDITATION and opened his eyes. His pale, flame-savaged face stared back at him from out of the reflective black surface of his pressurized meditation chamber. Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arm, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.
    He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight''.
    -- Lords Of The Sith

    Vader is Palpatine's most powerful emissary and a champion of the Dark Side:

    ''But the younger Skywalker’s life changed forever when he learned that not only was Anakin in fact a Jedi Knight who fought in the Clone Wars, but also that he subsequently became Darth Vader, the Emperor’s most feared and powerful emissary, and a champion of the dark side of the Force.''

    Palpatine describes Vader's powers as unparalleled:

    “Come, Darth Vader, you of all people should accept that some are born for greatness. That some are larger than life.”

    Vader remained silent.

    “Yes, Lord Vader.” Sidious softened his tone. “You are a true Sith, Lord Vader. Your dedication is unerring and your powers unparalleled. Perhaps, however, you are under the misimpression that only Sith and Jedi have trials to pass.”
    -- Tarkin
    Skyguy501 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    The older hero's would of been fine had it not been for unnecessary nerfs, also Vader needs a serious buff if this is how anakin is going to be portrayed

    It has been established that Anakin would have been a much more powerful Force and lightsaber-user withoutthe suit. It makes sense that he is stronger than Vader, since the Vader's suit is very detrimental to his abilities.

    False. All of it.

    Actually it is accurate. Vader is a more polished/mature/calculating warrior, but he lost a lot of his inherent power after Mustafar. The suit does not add to his abilities but instead makes him more clunky. Sidious did this on purpose even though he had the option of giving him a suit more like Grievous.

    The suit means nothing. 19 years between RotS and ANH and Vader now grows in the force through dark side teachings. Anakin Skywalker did not become weaker in order to dominate the galaxy with Palpatine, but stronger, and continued to grow in strength as Darth Vader.

    Let's ask the guy who created Star Wars... According to George Lucas in a 2005 interview with Vanity Fair, Anakin’s potential strength was twice that of Sidious', until he was burned:

    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor… So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

    Sidious acknowledges that Anakin is more powerful than he is in several sources, but when he was burned on Mustafar, according to George Lucas, he lost approximately 60% of his force power

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity before Mustafar = 2x Sidious

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity after Mustafar = .8x Sidious

    And here is more of the same from George Lucas:

    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

    "The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

    This. All of this is fact. This has been common knowledge way before Disney bought Lucasfilm Ltd. It also makes sense why the Emperor was eager to replace Vader with Luke. He’s younger, more agile, and more importantly, powerful. Everything he set up in Episode VI was so that he got exactly what he wanted. Except... because he’d gotten so used to getting what he wanted, his plans were undermined when Luke didn’t give in. Blinded by his rage and thirst for vengeance against Luke, it allowed Vader that one moment to overthrow his master, save his son and fulfill the prophesy of the Chosen One.

    Palpatine want Luke because is a Skywalker the son of Vader, and he hope he can obtain a Vader 2.0. But this not mean that Luke in episode 6 was already more powerful than Vader or that Vader wasn't more powerful than Anakin in episode 3 as i prove with canon statements above. Seem that some of you just underestimate Vader too much, i suggest to read this:

    https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/darth-vader-respect-thread-canon-1872153/

    All I am talking about is force potential - inherent force capacity. Not training, tactics, experience, skill, technique, knowledge, etc.

    This clearly states that Sidious has more force capacity than Vader after Mustafar. This clearly states that Luke could realize the potential that pre injury Vader could have, which indicates his force potential is much higher than post Mustafar Vader. And it clearly indicates that Vader lost 60% of his potential.

    That's it. Just the inherent force capacity.

    Everything else is not as clear and depends on what you allow into your own cannon or not. If it's just George then its that. If it's what Disney calls cannon then its that. And if it's all of it including the EU then that's fine too. It is an interesting question to wonder who would win. Episode 3 Anakin or Rogue One Vader. I'd personally still put my bets on Anakin, but you can do as you wish, and I won't tell you you are wrong, just that I have a different view.

    No you said that anakin in episode 3 is stronger than Vader and this not true in a Canon perspective for George or for Disney. In both Canon Vader is stronger than anakin in episode 3. Luke have the potential to be what Anakin would be without the injuries, but from what we see in this new Canon he don't seem to have surpassed Vader. In episode 6 Luke wasn't already stronger than Vader, he had the potential to surpass him, but he win only because Vader wasn't interested to kill him and because he fall in rage. Palpatine after Mustafar is stronger in the old Canon, while in the new Canon it is not clear as my Canon statements prove, indeed Vader
    Is stated as the most powerful Sith, suggesting that he is above Palpatine in power or potential:

    "Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

    But what it is truly Canon is that Vader killed Palpatine and have in himself still the possibility to kill him, indeed Palpatine know this. Paul S. Kemp stated that Palpatine deep down knows Vader's true potential and is wary of it. This would indicate that, in spite of his injuries, Vader's potential is still very high:

    "Somewhere in the back of Palpatine's mind, he knows what Vader's potential is. He feels he may be wrong, but he is wary of it. So he's very interested in determining his ability to manipulate Vader and testing his loyalty and assuring himself that this tiger that he holds by the tail is going to stay that way."

    -- Insider 157

    Definitely seem that you underestimate Vader in general.

    "No you said that anakin in episode 3 is stronger than Vader and this not true in a Canon perspective for George or for Disney. "

    I just reread everything I wrote and don't see where I said that... if I did, my mistake. What I was trying to show is that according to Lucas he lost 60% of his force potential after Mustafar - this isn't a matter of debate. Again I do personally think Anakin is stronger in ROTS than Vader ever is, but this is just an opinion based on the sources I respect as canon and is up to you to determine for yourself.

    " Luke have the potential to be what Anakin would be without the injuries"

    Yes, this is what I was trying to communicate all along - Anakin lost potential after the injuries

    "but from what we see in this new Canon he don't seem to have surpassed Vader"


    Again I'm was never claiming that I was the authority on who would win in a fight, I was talking about force potential.

    And again the new canon contradicts the old quite frequently. For instance Episode 8 alone does this a lot. e.g. Luke's character is completely different - as mark hammil says, "that's not my Luke Skywalker, he's Jake Skywalker."

    ""Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary"


    I think this is in accordance with what I've been saying, Anakin had incredible force potential, but the injuries on Mustar decreased this significantly. I don't think Anakin's injuries would affect his bloodline/****... And even if they did; Padme was pregnant before the injuries. I'm not sure of what you are trying to indicate with this quote...

    "Somewhere in the back of Palpatine's mind, he knows what Vader's potential is. He feels he may be wrong, but he is wary of it. So he's very interested in determining his ability to manipulate Vader and testing his loyalty and assuring himself that this tiger that he holds by the tail is going to stay that way."

    This isn't really specific. A baby with an Uzi is actually quite dangerous and has the potential to kill you. Kemp is not making it clear what type of potential he is referring to. He could easily be referring to Vader's potential to be treacherous.

    Lucas said Vader had 200% the force potential of Sidious before Mustafar, and 80% the force potential of Sidious after Mustafar. That is a clear and direct statement addressing the topic.

    All in all, I'm just pointing out what Lucas said

    Sorry but You are still continue to say that for you Anakin in ep. 3 is stronger than Vader, that is not true from a CANON perspective. Vader is stronger than Anakin in episode 3.

    Yes he lose potential after Mustafar, the potential to become even more powerful than what he became, but he don't because weaker. Lose potential don't mean lose power.

    "Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary"

    Here you miss the central point that is: the mist powerful jedi AND SITH.
    The sith is Vader, and here is called the most powerful Sith. No interpretations.

    Kemp is clearly referring to the fact that Palpatine is aware of the power of Vader again no interpretations.

    What Lucas said on Vanity Fair contradict what he said in several other occasions. But is not the argument, the argument is that Vader is stronger than anakin in episode 3 that is a Canon fact.

    I think the whole question of what is canon now is a real issue for people because of the way the franchise has gone since Disney bought it. But even if you are saying that because Disney gave Lucas 4 billions dollars, that they are now in control of canon, and can even override what he wrote/said - I still haven't seen any proof of what you are claiming from what you have provided - all I see is your interpretation of words that are not specific - these quotes you keep referring to don't actually provide proof of what you are saying - and if you can't understand why, and give better sources, I don't think there is a point in continuing this conversation. You saying something is canon and then offering no solid back up is not going to convince me, sorry... And I'm not even claiming I'm right that Anakin in ROTS would win in a fight against post Mustafar Vader - it's just my sense of it. It's just what I gather from Lucas saying that when Vader fought Obi-Wan in ANH that they were basically shells of their former selves. So show me direct evidence or we can just happily have our own opinions on the matter. I'm only claiming facts base on what was directly said by Lucas that addresses this very specifically; which is that Vader lost 60% of his power potential after Mustafar - otherwise you are free to think what you want about which one actually reached a more powerful state.


    I agree with ep. 3 Anakin being much stronger than Vader in suit. It,s pretty much logical that Vader as a half robot wasn’t able to do the same things as a healthy Anakin. Both physically and mentally Anakin had his strength more controlled than Vader, as if his suit got too damaged he would lose a lot of energy for trying to breath. It’s also easy to say that Vader was much slower in fighting than Anakin, as it was clearly shown in the movies. Vader was very strong with the force but versus the power of Anakin it wouldn’t be a match.

    Also, everything that Disney provides of Star Wars content, are non canon. Just making sure that non of you actually thinks someone besides George Lucas himself is able to do canon Star Wars.

    Then you are wrong. Is Canon that Vader is suit is stronger than episode 3 anakin. This in Lucas Canon, and in Disney Canon. Your opinion don't matter on Canon facts.

    Man, give up already, or offer us some actual proof. Whether or not Disney is canon is up to each person. But even if Disney is canon you haven't offered anything from any source that contradicts what Lucas said. You have offered no evidence just conjecture:

    "But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his Vader's arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."
    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.


    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor…"
    --George Lucas, Vanity Fair Interview, 2005.
  • Raices
    1103 posts Member
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    Yodamain wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    The older hero's would of been fine had it not been for unnecessary nerfs, also Vader needs a serious buff if this is how anakin is going to be portrayed

    It has been established that Anakin would have been a much more powerful Force and lightsaber-user withoutthe suit. It makes sense that he is stronger than Vader, since the Vader's suit is very detrimental to his abilities.

    False. All of it.

    Actually it is accurate. Vader is a more polished/mature/calculating warrior, but he lost a lot of his inherent power after Mustafar. The suit does not add to his abilities but instead makes him more clunky. Sidious did this on purpose even though he had the option of giving him a suit more like Grievous.

    The suit means nothing. 19 years between RotS and ANH and Vader now grows in the force through dark side teachings. Anakin Skywalker did not become weaker in order to dominate the galaxy with Palpatine, but stronger, and continued to grow in strength as Darth Vader.

    Let's ask the guy who created Star Wars... According to George Lucas in a 2005 interview with Vanity Fair, Anakin’s potential strength was twice that of Sidious', until he was burned:

    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor… So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

    Sidious acknowledges that Anakin is more powerful than he is in several sources, but when he was burned on Mustafar, according to George Lucas, he lost approximately 60% of his force power

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity before Mustafar = 2x Sidious

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity after Mustafar = .8x Sidious

    And here is more of the same from George Lucas:

    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

    "The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

    Wait, wait.. sorry, without offense but you are manipulating all this or misurandestand all this. Vader with the suit is still more powerful than Anakin in episode 3.

    Lucas in this interview only says that Vader without his wounds would become even more powerful, he is not saying at all that he is not powerful or that he is not more powerful than Anakin in episode 3.
    Vader's potential continued to grow after the Mustafar incident. And it is Palpatine himself who recognizes that Vader becomes more powerful in the new comics that are canonical.
    So even if we still have to consider canonical these mini interviews to Lucas (who at other times contradicted himself on these issues) there is no doubt that canonically Vader is more powerful than the Anakin of episode 3. Vader is canonically the most powerful Sith along with Palpatine. And even in the new canon there are suggestions that put him above all at all. In this canonical material it is talked about by Kylo Ren in reference to Vader and it says:

    ''Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi and Sith, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy.''
    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

    Another canonical proof that makes it clear that Vader is more powerful than Anakin in episode 3 is this, where Vader muses that his injuries increased his connection to the Force, suggesting that he has become more powerful than he was as Anakin:

    ''VADER COMPLETED HIS MEDITATION and opened his eyes. His pale, flame-savaged face stared back at him from out of the reflective black surface of his pressurized meditation chamber. Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arm, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.
    He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight''.
    -- Lords Of The Sith

    Vader is Palpatine's most powerful emissary and a champion of the Dark Side:

    ''But the younger Skywalker’s life changed forever when he learned that not only was Anakin in fact a Jedi Knight who fought in the Clone Wars, but also that he subsequently became Darth Vader, the Emperor’s most feared and powerful emissary, and a champion of the dark side of the Force.''

    Palpatine describes Vader's powers as unparalleled:

    “Come, Darth Vader, you of all people should accept that some are born for greatness. That some are larger than life.”

    Vader remained silent.

    “Yes, Lord Vader.” Sidious softened his tone. “You are a true Sith, Lord Vader. Your dedication is unerring and your powers unparalleled. Perhaps, however, you are under the misimpression that only Sith and Jedi have trials to pass.”
    -- Tarkin
    Skyguy501 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    The older hero's would of been fine had it not been for unnecessary nerfs, also Vader needs a serious buff if this is how anakin is going to be portrayed

    It has been established that Anakin would have been a much more powerful Force and lightsaber-user withoutthe suit. It makes sense that he is stronger than Vader, since the Vader's suit is very detrimental to his abilities.

    False. All of it.

    Actually it is accurate. Vader is a more polished/mature/calculating warrior, but he lost a lot of his inherent power after Mustafar. The suit does not add to his abilities but instead makes him more clunky. Sidious did this on purpose even though he had the option of giving him a suit more like Grievous.

    The suit means nothing. 19 years between RotS and ANH and Vader now grows in the force through dark side teachings. Anakin Skywalker did not become weaker in order to dominate the galaxy with Palpatine, but stronger, and continued to grow in strength as Darth Vader.

    Let's ask the guy who created Star Wars... According to George Lucas in a 2005 interview with Vanity Fair, Anakin’s potential strength was twice that of Sidious', until he was burned:

    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor… So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

    Sidious acknowledges that Anakin is more powerful than he is in several sources, but when he was burned on Mustafar, according to George Lucas, he lost approximately 60% of his force power

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity before Mustafar = 2x Sidious

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity after Mustafar = .8x Sidious

    And here is more of the same from George Lucas:

    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

    "The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

    This. All of this is fact. This has been common knowledge way before Disney bought Lucasfilm Ltd. It also makes sense why the Emperor was eager to replace Vader with Luke. He’s younger, more agile, and more importantly, powerful. Everything he set up in Episode VI was so that he got exactly what he wanted. Except... because he’d gotten so used to getting what he wanted, his plans were undermined when Luke didn’t give in. Blinded by his rage and thirst for vengeance against Luke, it allowed Vader that one moment to overthrow his master, save his son and fulfill the prophesy of the Chosen One.

    Palpatine want Luke because is a Skywalker the son of Vader, and he hope he can obtain a Vader 2.0. But this not mean that Luke in episode 6 was already more powerful than Vader or that Vader wasn't more powerful than Anakin in episode 3 as i prove with canon statements above. Seem that some of you just underestimate Vader too much, i suggest to read this:

    https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/darth-vader-respect-thread-canon-1872153/

    All I am talking about is force potential - inherent force capacity. Not training, tactics, experience, skill, technique, knowledge, etc.

    This clearly states that Sidious has more force capacity than Vader after Mustafar. This clearly states that Luke could realize the potential that pre injury Vader could have, which indicates his force potential is much higher than post Mustafar Vader. And it clearly indicates that Vader lost 60% of his potential.

    That's it. Just the inherent force capacity.

    Everything else is not as clear and depends on what you allow into your own cannon or not. If it's just George then its that. If it's what Disney calls cannon then its that. And if it's all of it including the EU then that's fine too. It is an interesting question to wonder who would win. Episode 3 Anakin or Rogue One Vader. I'd personally still put my bets on Anakin, but you can do as you wish, and I won't tell you you are wrong, just that I have a different view.

    No you said that anakin in episode 3 is stronger than Vader and this not true in a Canon perspective for George or for Disney. In both Canon Vader is stronger than anakin in episode 3. Luke have the potential to be what Anakin would be without the injuries, but from what we see in this new Canon he don't seem to have surpassed Vader. In episode 6 Luke wasn't already stronger than Vader, he had the potential to surpass him, but he win only because Vader wasn't interested to kill him and because he fall in rage. Palpatine after Mustafar is stronger in the old Canon, while in the new Canon it is not clear as my Canon statements prove, indeed Vader
    Is stated as the most powerful Sith, suggesting that he is above Palpatine in power or potential:

    "Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

    But what it is truly Canon is that Vader killed Palpatine and have in himself still the possibility to kill him, indeed Palpatine know this. Paul S. Kemp stated that Palpatine deep down knows Vader's true potential and is wary of it. This would indicate that, in spite of his injuries, Vader's potential is still very high:

    "Somewhere in the back of Palpatine's mind, he knows what Vader's potential is. He feels he may be wrong, but he is wary of it. So he's very interested in determining his ability to manipulate Vader and testing his loyalty and assuring himself that this tiger that he holds by the tail is going to stay that way."

    -- Insider 157

    Definitely seem that you underestimate Vader in general.

    "No you said that anakin in episode 3 is stronger than Vader and this not true in a Canon perspective for George or for Disney. "

    I just reread everything I wrote and don't see where I said that... if I did, my mistake. What I was trying to show is that according to Lucas he lost 60% of his force potential after Mustafar - this isn't a matter of debate. Again I do personally think Anakin is stronger in ROTS than Vader ever is, but this is just an opinion based on the sources I respect as canon and is up to you to determine for yourself.

    " Luke have the potential to be what Anakin would be without the injuries"

    Yes, this is what I was trying to communicate all along - Anakin lost potential after the injuries

    "but from what we see in this new Canon he don't seem to have surpassed Vader"


    Again I'm was never claiming that I was the authority on who would win in a fight, I was talking about force potential.

    And again the new canon contradicts the old quite frequently. For instance Episode 8 alone does this a lot. e.g. Luke's character is completely different - as mark hammil says, "that's not my Luke Skywalker, he's Jake Skywalker."

    ""Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary"


    I think this is in accordance with what I've been saying, Anakin had incredible force potential, but the injuries on Mustar decreased this significantly. I don't think Anakin's injuries would affect his bloodline/****... And even if they did; Padme was pregnant before the injuries. I'm not sure of what you are trying to indicate with this quote...

    "Somewhere in the back of Palpatine's mind, he knows what Vader's potential is. He feels he may be wrong, but he is wary of it. So he's very interested in determining his ability to manipulate Vader and testing his loyalty and assuring himself that this tiger that he holds by the tail is going to stay that way."

    This isn't really specific. A baby with an Uzi is actually quite dangerous and has the potential to kill you. Kemp is not making it clear what type of potential he is referring to. He could easily be referring to Vader's potential to be treacherous.

    Lucas said Vader had 200% the force potential of Sidious before Mustafar, and 80% the force potential of Sidious after Mustafar. That is a clear and direct statement addressing the topic.

    All in all, I'm just pointing out what Lucas said

    Sorry but You are still continue to say that for you Anakin in ep. 3 is stronger than Vader, that is not true from a CANON perspective. Vader is stronger than Anakin in episode 3.

    Yes he lose potential after Mustafar, the potential to become even more powerful than what he became, but he don't because weaker. Lose potential don't mean lose power.

    "Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary"

    Here you miss the central point that is: the mist powerful jedi AND SITH.
    The sith is Vader, and here is called the most powerful Sith. No interpretations.

    Kemp is clearly referring to the fact that Palpatine is aware of the power of Vader again no interpretations.

    What Lucas said on Vanity Fair contradict what he said in several other occasions. But is not the argument, the argument is that Vader is stronger than anakin in episode 3 that is a Canon fact.

    I think the whole question of what is canon now is a real issue for people because of the way the franchise has gone since Disney bought it. But even if you are saying that because Disney gave Lucas 4 billions dollars, that they are now in control of canon, and can even override what he wrote/said - I still haven't seen any proof of what you are claiming from what you have provided - all I see is your interpretation of words that are not specific - these quotes you keep referring to don't actually provide proof of what you are saying - and if you can't understand why, and give better sources, I don't think there is a point in continuing this conversation. You saying something is canon and then offering no solid back up is not going to convince me, sorry... And I'm not even claiming I'm right that Anakin in ROTS would win in a fight against post Mustafar Vader - it's just my sense of it. It's just what I gather from Lucas saying that when Vader fought Obi-Wan in ANH that they were basically shells of their former selves. So show me direct evidence or we can just happily have our own opinions on the matter. I'm only claiming facts base on what was directly said by Lucas that addresses this very specifically; which is that Vader lost 60% of his power potential after Mustafar - otherwise you are free to think what you want about which one actually reached a more powerful state.


    I agree with ep. 3 Anakin being much stronger than Vader in suit. It,s pretty much logical that Vader as a half robot wasn’t able to do the same things as a healthy Anakin. Both physically and mentally Anakin had his strength more controlled than Vader, as if his suit got too damaged he would lose a lot of energy for trying to breath. It’s also easy to say that Vader was much slower in fighting than Anakin, as it was clearly shown in the movies. Vader was very strong with the force but versus the power of Anakin it wouldn’t be a match.

    Also, everything that Disney provides of Star Wars content, are non canon. Just making sure that non of you actually thinks someone besides George Lucas himself is able to do canon Star Wars.

    Then you are wrong. Is Canon that Vader is suit is stronger than episode 3 anakin. This in Lucas Canon, and in Disney Canon. Your opinion don't matter on Canon facts.

    Man, give up already, or offer us some actual proof. Whether or not Disney is canon is up to each person. But even if Disney is canon you haven't offered anything from any source that contradicts what Lucas said. You have offered no evidence just conjecture:

    "But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his Vader's arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."
    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.


    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor…"
    --George Lucas, Vanity Fair Interview, 2005.

    Have you read the recent Vader comics?
  • The time is coming!
  • Lightsaber battles....please!
  • awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    Yodamain wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    The older hero's would of been fine had it not been for unnecessary nerfs, also Vader needs a serious buff if this is how anakin is going to be portrayed

    It has been established that Anakin would have been a much more powerful Force and lightsaber-user withoutthe suit. It makes sense that he is stronger than Vader, since the Vader's suit is very detrimental to his abilities.

    False. All of it.

    Actually it is accurate. Vader is a more polished/mature/calculating warrior, but he lost a lot of his inherent power after Mustafar. The suit does not add to his abilities but instead makes him more clunky. Sidious did this on purpose even though he had the option of giving him a suit more like Grievous.

    The suit means nothing. 19 years between RotS and ANH and Vader now grows in the force through dark side teachings. Anakin Skywalker did not become weaker in order to dominate the galaxy with Palpatine, but stronger, and continued to grow in strength as Darth Vader.

    Let's ask the guy who created Star Wars... According to George Lucas in a 2005 interview with Vanity Fair, Anakin’s potential strength was twice that of Sidious', until he was burned:

    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor… So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

    Sidious acknowledges that Anakin is more powerful than he is in several sources, but when he was burned on Mustafar, according to George Lucas, he lost approximately 60% of his force power

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity before Mustafar = 2x Sidious

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity after Mustafar = .8x Sidious

    And here is more of the same from George Lucas:

    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

    "The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

    Wait, wait.. sorry, without offense but you are manipulating all this or misurandestand all this. Vader with the suit is still more powerful than Anakin in episode 3.

    Lucas in this interview only says that Vader without his wounds would become even more powerful, he is not saying at all that he is not powerful or that he is not more powerful than Anakin in episode 3.
    Vader's potential continued to grow after the Mustafar incident. And it is Palpatine himself who recognizes that Vader becomes more powerful in the new comics that are canonical.
    So even if we still have to consider canonical these mini interviews to Lucas (who at other times contradicted himself on these issues) there is no doubt that canonically Vader is more powerful than the Anakin of episode 3. Vader is canonically the most powerful Sith along with Palpatine. And even in the new canon there are suggestions that put him above all at all. In this canonical material it is talked about by Kylo Ren in reference to Vader and it says:

    ''Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi and Sith, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy.''
    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

    Another canonical proof that makes it clear that Vader is more powerful than Anakin in episode 3 is this, where Vader muses that his injuries increased his connection to the Force, suggesting that he has become more powerful than he was as Anakin:

    ''VADER COMPLETED HIS MEDITATION and opened his eyes. His pale, flame-savaged face stared back at him from out of the reflective black surface of his pressurized meditation chamber. Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arm, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.
    He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight''.
    -- Lords Of The Sith

    Vader is Palpatine's most powerful emissary and a champion of the Dark Side:

    ''But the younger Skywalker’s life changed forever when he learned that not only was Anakin in fact a Jedi Knight who fought in the Clone Wars, but also that he subsequently became Darth Vader, the Emperor’s most feared and powerful emissary, and a champion of the dark side of the Force.''

    Palpatine describes Vader's powers as unparalleled:

    “Come, Darth Vader, you of all people should accept that some are born for greatness. That some are larger than life.”

    Vader remained silent.

    “Yes, Lord Vader.” Sidious softened his tone. “You are a true Sith, Lord Vader. Your dedication is unerring and your powers unparalleled. Perhaps, however, you are under the misimpression that only Sith and Jedi have trials to pass.”
    -- Tarkin
    Skyguy501 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    The older hero's would of been fine had it not been for unnecessary nerfs, also Vader needs a serious buff if this is how anakin is going to be portrayed

    It has been established that Anakin would have been a much more powerful Force and lightsaber-user withoutthe suit. It makes sense that he is stronger than Vader, since the Vader's suit is very detrimental to his abilities.

    False. All of it.

    Actually it is accurate. Vader is a more polished/mature/calculating warrior, but he lost a lot of his inherent power after Mustafar. The suit does not add to his abilities but instead makes him more clunky. Sidious did this on purpose even though he had the option of giving him a suit more like Grievous.

    The suit means nothing. 19 years between RotS and ANH and Vader now grows in the force through dark side teachings. Anakin Skywalker did not become weaker in order to dominate the galaxy with Palpatine, but stronger, and continued to grow in strength as Darth Vader.

    Let's ask the guy who created Star Wars... According to George Lucas in a 2005 interview with Vanity Fair, Anakin’s potential strength was twice that of Sidious', until he was burned:

    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor… So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

    Sidious acknowledges that Anakin is more powerful than he is in several sources, but when he was burned on Mustafar, according to George Lucas, he lost approximately 60% of his force power

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity before Mustafar = 2x Sidious

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity after Mustafar = .8x Sidious

    And here is more of the same from George Lucas:

    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

    "The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

    This. All of this is fact. This has been common knowledge way before Disney bought Lucasfilm Ltd. It also makes sense why the Emperor was eager to replace Vader with Luke. He’s younger, more agile, and more importantly, powerful. Everything he set up in Episode VI was so that he got exactly what he wanted. Except... because he’d gotten so used to getting what he wanted, his plans were undermined when Luke didn’t give in. Blinded by his rage and thirst for vengeance against Luke, it allowed Vader that one moment to overthrow his master, save his son and fulfill the prophesy of the Chosen One.

    Palpatine want Luke because is a Skywalker the son of Vader, and he hope he can obtain a Vader 2.0. But this not mean that Luke in episode 6 was already more powerful than Vader or that Vader wasn't more powerful than Anakin in episode 3 as i prove with canon statements above. Seem that some of you just underestimate Vader too much, i suggest to read this:

    https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/darth-vader-respect-thread-canon-1872153/

    All I am talking about is force potential - inherent force capacity. Not training, tactics, experience, skill, technique, knowledge, etc.

    This clearly states that Sidious has more force capacity than Vader after Mustafar. This clearly states that Luke could realize the potential that pre injury Vader could have, which indicates his force potential is much higher than post Mustafar Vader. And it clearly indicates that Vader lost 60% of his potential.

    That's it. Just the inherent force capacity.

    Everything else is not as clear and depends on what you allow into your own cannon or not. If it's just George then its that. If it's what Disney calls cannon then its that. And if it's all of it including the EU then that's fine too. It is an interesting question to wonder who would win. Episode 3 Anakin or Rogue One Vader. I'd personally still put my bets on Anakin, but you can do as you wish, and I won't tell you you are wrong, just that I have a different view.

    No you said that anakin in episode 3 is stronger than Vader and this not true in a Canon perspective for George or for Disney. In both Canon Vader is stronger than anakin in episode 3. Luke have the potential to be what Anakin would be without the injuries, but from what we see in this new Canon he don't seem to have surpassed Vader. In episode 6 Luke wasn't already stronger than Vader, he had the potential to surpass him, but he win only because Vader wasn't interested to kill him and because he fall in rage. Palpatine after Mustafar is stronger in the old Canon, while in the new Canon it is not clear as my Canon statements prove, indeed Vader
    Is stated as the most powerful Sith, suggesting that he is above Palpatine in power or potential:

    "Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

    But what it is truly Canon is that Vader killed Palpatine and have in himself still the possibility to kill him, indeed Palpatine know this. Paul S. Kemp stated that Palpatine deep down knows Vader's true potential and is wary of it. This would indicate that, in spite of his injuries, Vader's potential is still very high:

    "Somewhere in the back of Palpatine's mind, he knows what Vader's potential is. He feels he may be wrong, but he is wary of it. So he's very interested in determining his ability to manipulate Vader and testing his loyalty and assuring himself that this tiger that he holds by the tail is going to stay that way."

    -- Insider 157

    Definitely seem that you underestimate Vader in general.

    "No you said that anakin in episode 3 is stronger than Vader and this not true in a Canon perspective for George or for Disney. "

    I just reread everything I wrote and don't see where I said that... if I did, my mistake. What I was trying to show is that according to Lucas he lost 60% of his force potential after Mustafar - this isn't a matter of debate. Again I do personally think Anakin is stronger in ROTS than Vader ever is, but this is just an opinion based on the sources I respect as canon and is up to you to determine for yourself.

    " Luke have the potential to be what Anakin would be without the injuries"

    Yes, this is what I was trying to communicate all along - Anakin lost potential after the injuries

    "but from what we see in this new Canon he don't seem to have surpassed Vader"


    Again I'm was never claiming that I was the authority on who would win in a fight, I was talking about force potential.

    And again the new canon contradicts the old quite frequently. For instance Episode 8 alone does this a lot. e.g. Luke's character is completely different - as mark hammil says, "that's not my Luke Skywalker, he's Jake Skywalker."

    ""Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary"


    I think this is in accordance with what I've been saying, Anakin had incredible force potential, but the injuries on Mustar decreased this significantly. I don't think Anakin's injuries would affect his bloodline/****... And even if they did; Padme was pregnant before the injuries. I'm not sure of what you are trying to indicate with this quote...

    "Somewhere in the back of Palpatine's mind, he knows what Vader's potential is. He feels he may be wrong, but he is wary of it. So he's very interested in determining his ability to manipulate Vader and testing his loyalty and assuring himself that this tiger that he holds by the tail is going to stay that way."

    This isn't really specific. A baby with an Uzi is actually quite dangerous and has the potential to kill you. Kemp is not making it clear what type of potential he is referring to. He could easily be referring to Vader's potential to be treacherous.

    Lucas said Vader had 200% the force potential of Sidious before Mustafar, and 80% the force potential of Sidious after Mustafar. That is a clear and direct statement addressing the topic.

    All in all, I'm just pointing out what Lucas said

    Sorry but You are still continue to say that for you Anakin in ep. 3 is stronger than Vader, that is not true from a CANON perspective. Vader is stronger than Anakin in episode 3.

    Yes he lose potential after Mustafar, the potential to become even more powerful than what he became, but he don't because weaker. Lose potential don't mean lose power.

    "Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary"

    Here you miss the central point that is: the mist powerful jedi AND SITH.
    The sith is Vader, and here is called the most powerful Sith. No interpretations.

    Kemp is clearly referring to the fact that Palpatine is aware of the power of Vader again no interpretations.

    What Lucas said on Vanity Fair contradict what he said in several other occasions. But is not the argument, the argument is that Vader is stronger than anakin in episode 3 that is a Canon fact.

    I think the whole question of what is canon now is a real issue for people because of the way the franchise has gone since Disney bought it. But even if you are saying that because Disney gave Lucas 4 billions dollars, that they are now in control of canon, and can even override what he wrote/said - I still haven't seen any proof of what you are claiming from what you have provided - all I see is your interpretation of words that are not specific - these quotes you keep referring to don't actually provide proof of what you are saying - and if you can't understand why, and give better sources, I don't think there is a point in continuing this conversation. You saying something is canon and then offering no solid back up is not going to convince me, sorry... And I'm not even claiming I'm right that Anakin in ROTS would win in a fight against post Mustafar Vader - it's just my sense of it. It's just what I gather from Lucas saying that when Vader fought Obi-Wan in ANH that they were basically shells of their former selves. So show me direct evidence or we can just happily have our own opinions on the matter. I'm only claiming facts base on what was directly said by Lucas that addresses this very specifically; which is that Vader lost 60% of his power potential after Mustafar - otherwise you are free to think what you want about which one actually reached a more powerful state.


    I agree with ep. 3 Anakin being much stronger than Vader in suit. It,s pretty much logical that Vader as a half robot wasn’t able to do the same things as a healthy Anakin. Both physically and mentally Anakin had his strength more controlled than Vader, as if his suit got too damaged he would lose a lot of energy for trying to breath. It’s also easy to say that Vader was much slower in fighting than Anakin, as it was clearly shown in the movies. Vader was very strong with the force but versus the power of Anakin it wouldn’t be a match.

    Also, everything that Disney provides of Star Wars content, are non canon. Just making sure that non of you actually thinks someone besides George Lucas himself is able to do canon Star Wars.

    Then you are wrong. Is Canon that Vader is suit is stronger than episode 3 anakin. This in Lucas Canon, and in Disney Canon. Your opinion don't matter on Canon facts.

    Man, give up already, or offer us some actual proof. Whether or not Disney is canon is up to each person. But even if Disney is canon you haven't offered anything from any source that contradicts what Lucas said. You have offered no evidence just conjecture:

    "But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his Vader's arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."
    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.


    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor…"
    --George Lucas, Vanity Fair Interview, 2005.

    Oh my God, buddy, do you really have any trouble reading? What Lucas is saying here is that Anakin loses the potential to become what it was supposed to be. Losing potential is losing what you can become. It is not becoming weaker. Anakin / Vader after Mustafar will not reach its maximum potential, but it will still become much stronger than the times of episode 3. In the universe of Lucas it is very clear that Vader is stronger than Anakin in episode 3, but not as strong as it would be could become without the injuries. Is it clear to you now? I think this is clear to every star wars fan.

    And there are severals canon statements who explicitly say that Vader is stronger than Anakin in episode 3. You like Anakin more than Vader? Legit, but don't try to mystify the reality. I like Darth Maul more than Sidious but i can't say Maul is stronger only because i like him more.
  • I'm desperate for in-game footage videos!
  • DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    Yodamain wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
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    awakespace wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    The older hero's would of been fine had it not been for unnecessary nerfs, also Vader needs a serious buff if this is how anakin is going to be portrayed

    It has been established that Anakin would have been a much more powerful Force and lightsaber-user withoutthe suit. It makes sense that he is stronger than Vader, since the Vader's suit is very detrimental to his abilities.

    False. All of it.

    Actually it is accurate. Vader is a more polished/mature/calculating warrior, but he lost a lot of his inherent power after Mustafar. The suit does not add to his abilities but instead makes him more clunky. Sidious did this on purpose even though he had the option of giving him a suit more like Grievous.

    The suit means nothing. 19 years between RotS and ANH and Vader now grows in the force through dark side teachings. Anakin Skywalker did not become weaker in order to dominate the galaxy with Palpatine, but stronger, and continued to grow in strength as Darth Vader.

    Let's ask the guy who created Star Wars... According to George Lucas in a 2005 interview with Vanity Fair, Anakin’s potential strength was twice that of Sidious', until he was burned:

    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor… So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

    Sidious acknowledges that Anakin is more powerful than he is in several sources, but when he was burned on Mustafar, according to George Lucas, he lost approximately 60% of his force power

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity before Mustafar = 2x Sidious

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity after Mustafar = .8x Sidious

    And here is more of the same from George Lucas:

    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

    "The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

    Wait, wait.. sorry, without offense but you are manipulating all this or misurandestand all this. Vader with the suit is still more powerful than Anakin in episode 3.

    Lucas in this interview only says that Vader without his wounds would become even more powerful, he is not saying at all that he is not powerful or that he is not more powerful than Anakin in episode 3.
    Vader's potential continued to grow after the Mustafar incident. And it is Palpatine himself who recognizes that Vader becomes more powerful in the new comics that are canonical.
    So even if we still have to consider canonical these mini interviews to Lucas (who at other times contradicted himself on these issues) there is no doubt that canonically Vader is more powerful than the Anakin of episode 3. Vader is canonically the most powerful Sith along with Palpatine. And even in the new canon there are suggestions that put him above all at all. In this canonical material it is talked about by Kylo Ren in reference to Vader and it says:

    ''Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi and Sith, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy.''
    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

    Another canonical proof that makes it clear that Vader is more powerful than Anakin in episode 3 is this, where Vader muses that his injuries increased his connection to the Force, suggesting that he has become more powerful than he was as Anakin:

    ''VADER COMPLETED HIS MEDITATION and opened his eyes. His pale, flame-savaged face stared back at him from out of the reflective black surface of his pressurized meditation chamber. Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arm, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.
    He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight''.
    -- Lords Of The Sith

    Vader is Palpatine's most powerful emissary and a champion of the Dark Side:

    ''But the younger Skywalker’s life changed forever when he learned that not only was Anakin in fact a Jedi Knight who fought in the Clone Wars, but also that he subsequently became Darth Vader, the Emperor’s most feared and powerful emissary, and a champion of the dark side of the Force.''

    Palpatine describes Vader's powers as unparalleled:

    “Come, Darth Vader, you of all people should accept that some are born for greatness. That some are larger than life.”

    Vader remained silent.

    “Yes, Lord Vader.” Sidious softened his tone. “You are a true Sith, Lord Vader. Your dedication is unerring and your powers unparalleled. Perhaps, however, you are under the misimpression that only Sith and Jedi have trials to pass.”
    -- Tarkin
    Skyguy501 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    The older hero's would of been fine had it not been for unnecessary nerfs, also Vader needs a serious buff if this is how anakin is going to be portrayed

    It has been established that Anakin would have been a much more powerful Force and lightsaber-user withoutthe suit. It makes sense that he is stronger than Vader, since the Vader's suit is very detrimental to his abilities.

    False. All of it.

    Actually it is accurate. Vader is a more polished/mature/calculating warrior, but he lost a lot of his inherent power after Mustafar. The suit does not add to his abilities but instead makes him more clunky. Sidious did this on purpose even though he had the option of giving him a suit more like Grievous.

    The suit means nothing. 19 years between RotS and ANH and Vader now grows in the force through dark side teachings. Anakin Skywalker did not become weaker in order to dominate the galaxy with Palpatine, but stronger, and continued to grow in strength as Darth Vader.

    Let's ask the guy who created Star Wars... According to George Lucas in a 2005 interview with Vanity Fair, Anakin’s potential strength was twice that of Sidious', until he was burned:

    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor… So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

    Sidious acknowledges that Anakin is more powerful than he is in several sources, but when he was burned on Mustafar, according to George Lucas, he lost approximately 60% of his force power

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity before Mustafar = 2x Sidious

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity after Mustafar = .8x Sidious

    And here is more of the same from George Lucas:

    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

    "The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

    This. All of this is fact. This has been common knowledge way before Disney bought Lucasfilm Ltd. It also makes sense why the Emperor was eager to replace Vader with Luke. He’s younger, more agile, and more importantly, powerful. Everything he set up in Episode VI was so that he got exactly what he wanted. Except... because he’d gotten so used to getting what he wanted, his plans were undermined when Luke didn’t give in. Blinded by his rage and thirst for vengeance against Luke, it allowed Vader that one moment to overthrow his master, save his son and fulfill the prophesy of the Chosen One.

    Palpatine want Luke because is a Skywalker the son of Vader, and he hope he can obtain a Vader 2.0. But this not mean that Luke in episode 6 was already more powerful than Vader or that Vader wasn't more powerful than Anakin in episode 3 as i prove with canon statements above. Seem that some of you just underestimate Vader too much, i suggest to read this:

    https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/darth-vader-respect-thread-canon-1872153/

    All I am talking about is force potential - inherent force capacity. Not training, tactics, experience, skill, technique, knowledge, etc.

    This clearly states that Sidious has more force capacity than Vader after Mustafar. This clearly states that Luke could realize the potential that pre injury Vader could have, which indicates his force potential is much higher than post Mustafar Vader. And it clearly indicates that Vader lost 60% of his potential.

    That's it. Just the inherent force capacity.

    Everything else is not as clear and depends on what you allow into your own cannon or not. If it's just George then its that. If it's what Disney calls cannon then its that. And if it's all of it including the EU then that's fine too. It is an interesting question to wonder who would win. Episode 3 Anakin or Rogue One Vader. I'd personally still put my bets on Anakin, but you can do as you wish, and I won't tell you you are wrong, just that I have a different view.

    No you said that anakin in episode 3 is stronger than Vader and this not true in a Canon perspective for George or for Disney. In both Canon Vader is stronger than anakin in episode 3. Luke have the potential to be what Anakin would be without the injuries, but from what we see in this new Canon he don't seem to have surpassed Vader. In episode 6 Luke wasn't already stronger than Vader, he had the potential to surpass him, but he win only because Vader wasn't interested to kill him and because he fall in rage. Palpatine after Mustafar is stronger in the old Canon, while in the new Canon it is not clear as my Canon statements prove, indeed Vader
    Is stated as the most powerful Sith, suggesting that he is above Palpatine in power or potential:

    "Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

    But what it is truly Canon is that Vader killed Palpatine and have in himself still the possibility to kill him, indeed Palpatine know this. Paul S. Kemp stated that Palpatine deep down knows Vader's true potential and is wary of it. This would indicate that, in spite of his injuries, Vader's potential is still very high:

    "Somewhere in the back of Palpatine's mind, he knows what Vader's potential is. He feels he may be wrong, but he is wary of it. So he's very interested in determining his ability to manipulate Vader and testing his loyalty and assuring himself that this tiger that he holds by the tail is going to stay that way."

    -- Insider 157

    Definitely seem that you underestimate Vader in general.

    "No you said that anakin in episode 3 is stronger than Vader and this not true in a Canon perspective for George or for Disney. "

    I just reread everything I wrote and don't see where I said that... if I did, my mistake. What I was trying to show is that according to Lucas he lost 60% of his force potential after Mustafar - this isn't a matter of debate. Again I do personally think Anakin is stronger in ROTS than Vader ever is, but this is just an opinion based on the sources I respect as canon and is up to you to determine for yourself.

    " Luke have the potential to be what Anakin would be without the injuries"

    Yes, this is what I was trying to communicate all along - Anakin lost potential after the injuries

    "but from what we see in this new Canon he don't seem to have surpassed Vader"


    Again I'm was never claiming that I was the authority on who would win in a fight, I was talking about force potential.

    And again the new canon contradicts the old quite frequently. For instance Episode 8 alone does this a lot. e.g. Luke's character is completely different - as mark hammil says, "that's not my Luke Skywalker, he's Jake Skywalker."

    ""Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary"


    I think this is in accordance with what I've been saying, Anakin had incredible force potential, but the injuries on Mustar decreased this significantly. I don't think Anakin's injuries would affect his bloodline/****... And even if they did; Padme was pregnant before the injuries. I'm not sure of what you are trying to indicate with this quote...

    "Somewhere in the back of Palpatine's mind, he knows what Vader's potential is. He feels he may be wrong, but he is wary of it. So he's very interested in determining his ability to manipulate Vader and testing his loyalty and assuring himself that this tiger that he holds by the tail is going to stay that way."

    This isn't really specific. A baby with an Uzi is actually quite dangerous and has the potential to kill you. Kemp is not making it clear what type of potential he is referring to. He could easily be referring to Vader's potential to be treacherous.

    Lucas said Vader had 200% the force potential of Sidious before Mustafar, and 80% the force potential of Sidious after Mustafar. That is a clear and direct statement addressing the topic.

    All in all, I'm just pointing out what Lucas said

    Sorry but You are still continue to say that for you Anakin in ep. 3 is stronger than Vader, that is not true from a CANON perspective. Vader is stronger than Anakin in episode 3.

    Yes he lose potential after Mustafar, the potential to become even more powerful than what he became, but he don't because weaker. Lose potential don't mean lose power.

    "Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary"

    Here you miss the central point that is: the mist powerful jedi AND SITH.
    The sith is Vader, and here is called the most powerful Sith. No interpretations.

    Kemp is clearly referring to the fact that Palpatine is aware of the power of Vader again no interpretations.

    What Lucas said on Vanity Fair contradict what he said in several other occasions. But is not the argument, the argument is that Vader is stronger than anakin in episode 3 that is a Canon fact.

    I think the whole question of what is canon now is a real issue for people because of the way the franchise has gone since Disney bought it. But even if you are saying that because Disney gave Lucas 4 billions dollars, that they are now in control of canon, and can even override what he wrote/said - I still haven't seen any proof of what you are claiming from what you have provided - all I see is your interpretation of words that are not specific - these quotes you keep referring to don't actually provide proof of what you are saying - and if you can't understand why, and give better sources, I don't think there is a point in continuing this conversation. You saying something is canon and then offering no solid back up is not going to convince me, sorry... And I'm not even claiming I'm right that Anakin in ROTS would win in a fight against post Mustafar Vader - it's just my sense of it. It's just what I gather from Lucas saying that when Vader fought Obi-Wan in ANH that they were basically shells of their former selves. So show me direct evidence or we can just happily have our own opinions on the matter. I'm only claiming facts base on what was directly said by Lucas that addresses this very specifically; which is that Vader lost 60% of his power potential after Mustafar - otherwise you are free to think what you want about which one actually reached a more powerful state.


    I agree with ep. 3 Anakin being much stronger than Vader in suit. It,s pretty much logical that Vader as a half robot wasn’t able to do the same things as a healthy Anakin. Both physically and mentally Anakin had his strength more controlled than Vader, as if his suit got too damaged he would lose a lot of energy for trying to breath. It’s also easy to say that Vader was much slower in fighting than Anakin, as it was clearly shown in the movies. Vader was very strong with the force but versus the power of Anakin it wouldn’t be a match.

    Also, everything that Disney provides of Star Wars content, are non canon. Just making sure that non of you actually thinks someone besides George Lucas himself is able to do canon Star Wars.

    Then you are wrong. Is Canon that Vader is suit is stronger than episode 3 anakin. This in Lucas Canon, and in Disney Canon. Your opinion don't matter on Canon facts.

    Man, give up already, or offer us some actual proof. Whether or not Disney is canon is up to each person. But even if Disney is canon you haven't offered anything from any source that contradicts what Lucas said. You have offered no evidence just conjecture:

    "But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his Vader's arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."
    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.


    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor…"
    --George Lucas, Vanity Fair Interview, 2005.

    Oh my God, buddy, do you really have any trouble reading? What Lucas is saying here is that Anakin loses the potential to become what it was supposed to be. Losing potential is losing what you can become. It is not becoming weaker. Anakin / Vader after Mustafar will not reach its maximum potential, but it will still become much stronger than the times of episode 3. In the universe of Lucas it is very clear that Vader is stronger than Anakin in episode 3, but not as strong as it would be could become without the injuries. Is it clear to you now? I think this is clear to every star wars fan.

    And there are severals canon statements who explicitly say that Vader is stronger than Anakin in episode 3. You like Anakin more than Vader? Legit, but don't try to mystify the reality. I like Darth Maul more than Sidious but i can't say Maul is stronger only because i like him more.

    You say:

    "In the universe of Lucas it is very clear that Vader is stronger than Anakin in episode 3, but not as strong as it would be could become without the injuries. Is it clear to you now?"

    Lucas says:

    "But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his Vader's arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku".


    If Vader was only as strong as Dooku - then he is not stronger than Anakin - Anakin defeated Dooku

    I agree with you that the Vader/Luke/Leia/Kylo line is the strongest bloodline ever

    I agree that in the comics you see Vader do amazing things (although Sidious is still stronger)

    You see Anakin do amazing things in TCW - especially when he defeats the son and daughter (essentially force gods) on Mortis

    Honestly when I first heard that Vader lost potential many years ago, it really bothered me. I didn't like the idea that his injuries decreased his power; but according to Lucas, power is tied to the physical body - and according to canon, even Disney; there is nothing specific to dispute this
  • Raices wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    Yodamain wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    The older hero's would of been fine had it not been for unnecessary nerfs, also Vader needs a serious buff if this is how anakin is going to be portrayed

    It has been established that Anakin would have been a much more powerful Force and lightsaber-user withoutthe suit. It makes sense that he is stronger than Vader, since the Vader's suit is very detrimental to his abilities.

    False. All of it.

    Actually it is accurate. Vader is a more polished/mature/calculating warrior, but he lost a lot of his inherent power after Mustafar. The suit does not add to his abilities but instead makes him more clunky. Sidious did this on purpose even though he had the option of giving him a suit more like Grievous.

    The suit means nothing. 19 years between RotS and ANH and Vader now grows in the force through dark side teachings. Anakin Skywalker did not become weaker in order to dominate the galaxy with Palpatine, but stronger, and continued to grow in strength as Darth Vader.

    Let's ask the guy who created Star Wars... According to George Lucas in a 2005 interview with Vanity Fair, Anakin’s potential strength was twice that of Sidious', until he was burned:

    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor… So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

    Sidious acknowledges that Anakin is more powerful than he is in several sources, but when he was burned on Mustafar, according to George Lucas, he lost approximately 60% of his force power

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity before Mustafar = 2x Sidious

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity after Mustafar = .8x Sidious

    And here is more of the same from George Lucas:

    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

    "The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

    Wait, wait.. sorry, without offense but you are manipulating all this or misurandestand all this. Vader with the suit is still more powerful than Anakin in episode 3.

    Lucas in this interview only says that Vader without his wounds would become even more powerful, he is not saying at all that he is not powerful or that he is not more powerful than Anakin in episode 3.
    Vader's potential continued to grow after the Mustafar incident. And it is Palpatine himself who recognizes that Vader becomes more powerful in the new comics that are canonical.
    So even if we still have to consider canonical these mini interviews to Lucas (who at other times contradicted himself on these issues) there is no doubt that canonically Vader is more powerful than the Anakin of episode 3. Vader is canonically the most powerful Sith along with Palpatine. And even in the new canon there are suggestions that put him above all at all. In this canonical material it is talked about by Kylo Ren in reference to Vader and it says:

    ''Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi and Sith, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy.''
    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

    Another canonical proof that makes it clear that Vader is more powerful than Anakin in episode 3 is this, where Vader muses that his injuries increased his connection to the Force, suggesting that he has become more powerful than he was as Anakin:

    ''VADER COMPLETED HIS MEDITATION and opened his eyes. His pale, flame-savaged face stared back at him from out of the reflective black surface of his pressurized meditation chamber. Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arm, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.
    He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight''.
    -- Lords Of The Sith

    Vader is Palpatine's most powerful emissary and a champion of the Dark Side:

    ''But the younger Skywalker’s life changed forever when he learned that not only was Anakin in fact a Jedi Knight who fought in the Clone Wars, but also that he subsequently became Darth Vader, the Emperor’s most feared and powerful emissary, and a champion of the dark side of the Force.''

    Palpatine describes Vader's powers as unparalleled:

    “Come, Darth Vader, you of all people should accept that some are born for greatness. That some are larger than life.”

    Vader remained silent.

    “Yes, Lord Vader.” Sidious softened his tone. “You are a true Sith, Lord Vader. Your dedication is unerring and your powers unparalleled. Perhaps, however, you are under the misimpression that only Sith and Jedi have trials to pass.”
    -- Tarkin
    Skyguy501 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    The older hero's would of been fine had it not been for unnecessary nerfs, also Vader needs a serious buff if this is how anakin is going to be portrayed

    It has been established that Anakin would have been a much more powerful Force and lightsaber-user withoutthe suit. It makes sense that he is stronger than Vader, since the Vader's suit is very detrimental to his abilities.

    False. All of it.

    Actually it is accurate. Vader is a more polished/mature/calculating warrior, but he lost a lot of his inherent power after Mustafar. The suit does not add to his abilities but instead makes him more clunky. Sidious did this on purpose even though he had the option of giving him a suit more like Grievous.

    The suit means nothing. 19 years between RotS and ANH and Vader now grows in the force through dark side teachings. Anakin Skywalker did not become weaker in order to dominate the galaxy with Palpatine, but stronger, and continued to grow in strength as Darth Vader.

    Let's ask the guy who created Star Wars... According to George Lucas in a 2005 interview with Vanity Fair, Anakin’s potential strength was twice that of Sidious', until he was burned:

    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor… So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

    Sidious acknowledges that Anakin is more powerful than he is in several sources, but when he was burned on Mustafar, according to George Lucas, he lost approximately 60% of his force power

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity before Mustafar = 2x Sidious

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity after Mustafar = .8x Sidious

    And here is more of the same from George Lucas:

    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

    "The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

    This. All of this is fact. This has been common knowledge way before Disney bought Lucasfilm Ltd. It also makes sense why the Emperor was eager to replace Vader with Luke. He’s younger, more agile, and more importantly, powerful. Everything he set up in Episode VI was so that he got exactly what he wanted. Except... because he’d gotten so used to getting what he wanted, his plans were undermined when Luke didn’t give in. Blinded by his rage and thirst for vengeance against Luke, it allowed Vader that one moment to overthrow his master, save his son and fulfill the prophesy of the Chosen One.

    Palpatine want Luke because is a Skywalker the son of Vader, and he hope he can obtain a Vader 2.0. But this not mean that Luke in episode 6 was already more powerful than Vader or that Vader wasn't more powerful than Anakin in episode 3 as i prove with canon statements above. Seem that some of you just underestimate Vader too much, i suggest to read this:

    https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/darth-vader-respect-thread-canon-1872153/

    All I am talking about is force potential - inherent force capacity. Not training, tactics, experience, skill, technique, knowledge, etc.

    This clearly states that Sidious has more force capacity than Vader after Mustafar. This clearly states that Luke could realize the potential that pre injury Vader could have, which indicates his force potential is much higher than post Mustafar Vader. And it clearly indicates that Vader lost 60% of his potential.

    That's it. Just the inherent force capacity.

    Everything else is not as clear and depends on what you allow into your own cannon or not. If it's just George then its that. If it's what Disney calls cannon then its that. And if it's all of it including the EU then that's fine too. It is an interesting question to wonder who would win. Episode 3 Anakin or Rogue One Vader. I'd personally still put my bets on Anakin, but you can do as you wish, and I won't tell you you are wrong, just that I have a different view.

    No you said that anakin in episode 3 is stronger than Vader and this not true in a Canon perspective for George or for Disney. In both Canon Vader is stronger than anakin in episode 3. Luke have the potential to be what Anakin would be without the injuries, but from what we see in this new Canon he don't seem to have surpassed Vader. In episode 6 Luke wasn't already stronger than Vader, he had the potential to surpass him, but he win only because Vader wasn't interested to kill him and because he fall in rage. Palpatine after Mustafar is stronger in the old Canon, while in the new Canon it is not clear as my Canon statements prove, indeed Vader
    Is stated as the most powerful Sith, suggesting that he is above Palpatine in power or potential:

    "Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

    But what it is truly Canon is that Vader killed Palpatine and have in himself still the possibility to kill him, indeed Palpatine know this. Paul S. Kemp stated that Palpatine deep down knows Vader's true potential and is wary of it. This would indicate that, in spite of his injuries, Vader's potential is still very high:

    "Somewhere in the back of Palpatine's mind, he knows what Vader's potential is. He feels he may be wrong, but he is wary of it. So he's very interested in determining his ability to manipulate Vader and testing his loyalty and assuring himself that this tiger that he holds by the tail is going to stay that way."

    -- Insider 157

    Definitely seem that you underestimate Vader in general.

    "No you said that anakin in episode 3 is stronger than Vader and this not true in a Canon perspective for George or for Disney. "

    I just reread everything I wrote and don't see where I said that... if I did, my mistake. What I was trying to show is that according to Lucas he lost 60% of his force potential after Mustafar - this isn't a matter of debate. Again I do personally think Anakin is stronger in ROTS than Vader ever is, but this is just an opinion based on the sources I respect as canon and is up to you to determine for yourself.

    " Luke have the potential to be what Anakin would be without the injuries"

    Yes, this is what I was trying to communicate all along - Anakin lost potential after the injuries

    "but from what we see in this new Canon he don't seem to have surpassed Vader"


    Again I'm was never claiming that I was the authority on who would win in a fight, I was talking about force potential.

    And again the new canon contradicts the old quite frequently. For instance Episode 8 alone does this a lot. e.g. Luke's character is completely different - as mark hammil says, "that's not my Luke Skywalker, he's Jake Skywalker."

    ""Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary"


    I think this is in accordance with what I've been saying, Anakin had incredible force potential, but the injuries on Mustar decreased this significantly. I don't think Anakin's injuries would affect his bloodline/****... And even if they did; Padme was pregnant before the injuries. I'm not sure of what you are trying to indicate with this quote...

    "Somewhere in the back of Palpatine's mind, he knows what Vader's potential is. He feels he may be wrong, but he is wary of it. So he's very interested in determining his ability to manipulate Vader and testing his loyalty and assuring himself that this tiger that he holds by the tail is going to stay that way."

    This isn't really specific. A baby with an Uzi is actually quite dangerous and has the potential to kill you. Kemp is not making it clear what type of potential he is referring to. He could easily be referring to Vader's potential to be treacherous.

    Lucas said Vader had 200% the force potential of Sidious before Mustafar, and 80% the force potential of Sidious after Mustafar. That is a clear and direct statement addressing the topic.

    All in all, I'm just pointing out what Lucas said

    Sorry but You are still continue to say that for you Anakin in ep. 3 is stronger than Vader, that is not true from a CANON perspective. Vader is stronger than Anakin in episode 3.

    Yes he lose potential after Mustafar, the potential to become even more powerful than what he became, but he don't because weaker. Lose potential don't mean lose power.

    "Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary"

    Here you miss the central point that is: the mist powerful jedi AND SITH.
    The sith is Vader, and here is called the most powerful Sith. No interpretations.

    Kemp is clearly referring to the fact that Palpatine is aware of the power of Vader again no interpretations.

    What Lucas said on Vanity Fair contradict what he said in several other occasions. But is not the argument, the argument is that Vader is stronger than anakin in episode 3 that is a Canon fact.

    I think the whole question of what is canon now is a real issue for people because of the way the franchise has gone since Disney bought it. But even if you are saying that because Disney gave Lucas 4 billions dollars, that they are now in control of canon, and can even override what he wrote/said - I still haven't seen any proof of what you are claiming from what you have provided - all I see is your interpretation of words that are not specific - these quotes you keep referring to don't actually provide proof of what you are saying - and if you can't understand why, and give better sources, I don't think there is a point in continuing this conversation. You saying something is canon and then offering no solid back up is not going to convince me, sorry... And I'm not even claiming I'm right that Anakin in ROTS would win in a fight against post Mustafar Vader - it's just my sense of it. It's just what I gather from Lucas saying that when Vader fought Obi-Wan in ANH that they were basically shells of their former selves. So show me direct evidence or we can just happily have our own opinions on the matter. I'm only claiming facts base on what was directly said by Lucas that addresses this very specifically; which is that Vader lost 60% of his power potential after Mustafar - otherwise you are free to think what you want about which one actually reached a more powerful state.


    I agree with ep. 3 Anakin being much stronger than Vader in suit. It,s pretty much logical that Vader as a half robot wasn’t able to do the same things as a healthy Anakin. Both physically and mentally Anakin had his strength more controlled than Vader, as if his suit got too damaged he would lose a lot of energy for trying to breath. It’s also easy to say that Vader was much slower in fighting than Anakin, as it was clearly shown in the movies. Vader was very strong with the force but versus the power of Anakin it wouldn’t be a match.

    Also, everything that Disney provides of Star Wars content, are non canon. Just making sure that non of you actually thinks someone besides George Lucas himself is able to do canon Star Wars.

    Then you are wrong. Is Canon that Vader is suit is stronger than episode 3 anakin. This in Lucas Canon, and in Disney Canon. Your opinion don't matter on Canon facts.

    Man, give up already, or offer us some actual proof. Whether or not Disney is canon is up to each person. But even if Disney is canon you haven't offered anything from any source that contradicts what Lucas said. You have offered no evidence just conjecture:

    "But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his Vader's arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."
    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.


    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor…"
    --George Lucas, Vanity Fair Interview, 2005.

    Have you read the recent Vader comics?

    Some of them, yes, but not everything. What are you referring to exactly. Like when he took on that entire rebel platoon by himself? That was definitely cool. Is there anything that you are referring to? I agree that he looks really powerful in the comics, but comics and cartoons tend to do that with characters. I'm sure if there were comics of Anakin or Palpatine there would be really crazy scenes too.
  • Darth_Vapor3
    3200 posts Member
    edited February 26
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    Yodamain wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    The older hero's would of been fine had it not been for unnecessary nerfs, also Vader needs a serious buff if this is how anakin is going to be portrayed

    It has been established that Anakin would have been a much more powerful Force and lightsaber-user withoutthe suit. It makes sense that he is stronger than Vader, since the Vader's suit is very detrimental to his abilities.

    False. All of it.

    Actually it is accurate. Vader is a more polished/mature/calculating warrior, but he lost a lot of his inherent power after Mustafar. The suit does not add to his abilities but instead makes him more clunky. Sidious did this on purpose even though he had the option of giving him a suit more like Grievous.

    The suit means nothing. 19 years between RotS and ANH and Vader now grows in the force through dark side teachings. Anakin Skywalker did not become weaker in order to dominate the galaxy with Palpatine, but stronger, and continued to grow in strength as Darth Vader.

    Let's ask the guy who created Star Wars... According to George Lucas in a 2005 interview with Vanity Fair, Anakin’s potential strength was twice that of Sidious', until he was burned:

    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor… So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

    Sidious acknowledges that Anakin is more powerful than he is in several sources, but when he was burned on Mustafar, according to George Lucas, he lost approximately 60% of his force power

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity before Mustafar = 2x Sidious

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity after Mustafar = .8x Sidious

    And here is more of the same from George Lucas:

    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

    "The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

    Wait, wait.. sorry, without offense but you are manipulating all this or misurandestand all this. Vader with the suit is still more powerful than Anakin in episode 3.

    Lucas in this interview only says that Vader without his wounds would become even more powerful, he is not saying at all that he is not powerful or that he is not more powerful than Anakin in episode 3.
    Vader's potential continued to grow after the Mustafar incident. And it is Palpatine himself who recognizes that Vader becomes more powerful in the new comics that are canonical.
    So even if we still have to consider canonical these mini interviews to Lucas (who at other times contradicted himself on these issues) there is no doubt that canonically Vader is more powerful than the Anakin of episode 3. Vader is canonically the most powerful Sith along with Palpatine. And even in the new canon there are suggestions that put him above all at all. In this canonical material it is talked about by Kylo Ren in reference to Vader and it says:

    ''Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi and Sith, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy.''
    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

    Another canonical proof that makes it clear that Vader is more powerful than Anakin in episode 3 is this, where Vader muses that his injuries increased his connection to the Force, suggesting that he has become more powerful than he was as Anakin:

    ''VADER COMPLETED HIS MEDITATION and opened his eyes. His pale, flame-savaged face stared back at him from out of the reflective black surface of his pressurized meditation chamber. Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arm, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.
    He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight''.
    -- Lords Of The Sith

    Vader is Palpatine's most powerful emissary and a champion of the Dark Side:

    ''But the younger Skywalker’s life changed forever when he learned that not only was Anakin in fact a Jedi Knight who fought in the Clone Wars, but also that he subsequently became Darth Vader, the Emperor’s most feared and powerful emissary, and a champion of the dark side of the Force.''

    Palpatine describes Vader's powers as unparalleled:

    “Come, Darth Vader, you of all people should accept that some are born for greatness. That some are larger than life.”

    Vader remained silent.

    “Yes, Lord Vader.” Sidious softened his tone. “You are a true Sith, Lord Vader. Your dedication is unerring and your powers unparalleled. Perhaps, however, you are under the misimpression that only Sith and Jedi have trials to pass.”
    -- Tarkin
    Skyguy501 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    The older hero's would of been fine had it not been for unnecessary nerfs, also Vader needs a serious buff if this is how anakin is going to be portrayed

    It has been established that Anakin would have been a much more powerful Force and lightsaber-user withoutthe suit. It makes sense that he is stronger than Vader, since the Vader's suit is very detrimental to his abilities.

    False. All of it.

    Actually it is accurate. Vader is a more polished/mature/calculating warrior, but he lost a lot of his inherent power after Mustafar. The suit does not add to his abilities but instead makes him more clunky. Sidious did this on purpose even though he had the option of giving him a suit more like Grievous.

    The suit means nothing. 19 years between RotS and ANH and Vader now grows in the force through dark side teachings. Anakin Skywalker did not become weaker in order to dominate the galaxy with Palpatine, but stronger, and continued to grow in strength as Darth Vader.

    Let's ask the guy who created Star Wars... According to George Lucas in a 2005 interview with Vanity Fair, Anakin’s potential strength was twice that of Sidious', until he was burned:

    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor… So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

    Sidious acknowledges that Anakin is more powerful than he is in several sources, but when he was burned on Mustafar, according to George Lucas, he lost approximately 60% of his force power

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity before Mustafar = 2x Sidious

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity after Mustafar = .8x Sidious

    And here is more of the same from George Lucas:

    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

    "The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

    This. All of this is fact. This has been common knowledge way before Disney bought Lucasfilm Ltd. It also makes sense why the Emperor was eager to replace Vader with Luke. He’s younger, more agile, and more importantly, powerful. Everything he set up in Episode VI was so that he got exactly what he wanted. Except... because he’d gotten so used to getting what he wanted, his plans were undermined when Luke didn’t give in. Blinded by his rage and thirst for vengeance against Luke, it allowed Vader that one moment to overthrow his master, save his son and fulfill the prophesy of the Chosen One.

    Palpatine want Luke because is a Skywalker the son of Vader, and he hope he can obtain a Vader 2.0. But this not mean that Luke in episode 6 was already more powerful than Vader or that Vader wasn't more powerful than Anakin in episode 3 as i prove with canon statements above. Seem that some of you just underestimate Vader too much, i suggest to read this:

    https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/darth-vader-respect-thread-canon-1872153/

    All I am talking about is force potential - inherent force capacity. Not training, tactics, experience, skill, technique, knowledge, etc.

    This clearly states that Sidious has more force capacity than Vader after Mustafar. This clearly states that Luke could realize the potential that pre injury Vader could have, which indicates his force potential is much higher than post Mustafar Vader. And it clearly indicates that Vader lost 60% of his potential.

    That's it. Just the inherent force capacity.

    Everything else is not as clear and depends on what you allow into your own cannon or not. If it's just George then its that. If it's what Disney calls cannon then its that. And if it's all of it including the EU then that's fine too. It is an interesting question to wonder who would win. Episode 3 Anakin or Rogue One Vader. I'd personally still put my bets on Anakin, but you can do as you wish, and I won't tell you you are wrong, just that I have a different view.

    No you said that anakin in episode 3 is stronger than Vader and this not true in a Canon perspective for George or for Disney. In both Canon Vader is stronger than anakin in episode 3. Luke have the potential to be what Anakin would be without the injuries, but from what we see in this new Canon he don't seem to have surpassed Vader. In episode 6 Luke wasn't already stronger than Vader, he had the potential to surpass him, but he win only because Vader wasn't interested to kill him and because he fall in rage. Palpatine after Mustafar is stronger in the old Canon, while in the new Canon it is not clear as my Canon statements prove, indeed Vader
    Is stated as the most powerful Sith, suggesting that he is above Palpatine in power or potential:

    "Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

    But what it is truly Canon is that Vader killed Palpatine and have in himself still the possibility to kill him, indeed Palpatine know this. Paul S. Kemp stated that Palpatine deep down knows Vader's true potential and is wary of it. This would indicate that, in spite of his injuries, Vader's potential is still very high:

    "Somewhere in the back of Palpatine's mind, he knows what Vader's potential is. He feels he may be wrong, but he is wary of it. So he's very interested in determining his ability to manipulate Vader and testing his loyalty and assuring himself that this tiger that he holds by the tail is going to stay that way."

    -- Insider 157

    Definitely seem that you underestimate Vader in general.

    "No you said that anakin in episode 3 is stronger than Vader and this not true in a Canon perspective for George or for Disney. "

    I just reread everything I wrote and don't see where I said that... if I did, my mistake. What I was trying to show is that according to Lucas he lost 60% of his force potential after Mustafar - this isn't a matter of debate. Again I do personally think Anakin is stronger in ROTS than Vader ever is, but this is just an opinion based on the sources I respect as canon and is up to you to determine for yourself.

    " Luke have the potential to be what Anakin would be without the injuries"

    Yes, this is what I was trying to communicate all along - Anakin lost potential after the injuries

    "but from what we see in this new Canon he don't seem to have surpassed Vader"


    Again I'm was never claiming that I was the authority on who would win in a fight, I was talking about force potential.

    And again the new canon contradicts the old quite frequently. For instance Episode 8 alone does this a lot. e.g. Luke's character is completely different - as mark hammil says, "that's not my Luke Skywalker, he's Jake Skywalker."

    ""Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary"


    I think this is in accordance with what I've been saying, Anakin had incredible force potential, but the injuries on Mustar decreased this significantly. I don't think Anakin's injuries would affect his bloodline/****... And even if they did; Padme was pregnant before the injuries. I'm not sure of what you are trying to indicate with this quote...

    "Somewhere in the back of Palpatine's mind, he knows what Vader's potential is. He feels he may be wrong, but he is wary of it. So he's very interested in determining his ability to manipulate Vader and testing his loyalty and assuring himself that this tiger that he holds by the tail is going to stay that way."

    This isn't really specific. A baby with an Uzi is actually quite dangerous and has the potential to kill you. Kemp is not making it clear what type of potential he is referring to. He could easily be referring to Vader's potential to be treacherous.

    Lucas said Vader had 200% the force potential of Sidious before Mustafar, and 80% the force potential of Sidious after Mustafar. That is a clear and direct statement addressing the topic.

    All in all, I'm just pointing out what Lucas said

    Sorry but You are still continue to say that for you Anakin in ep. 3 is stronger than Vader, that is not true from a CANON perspective. Vader is stronger than Anakin in episode 3.

    Yes he lose potential after Mustafar, the potential to become even more powerful than what he became, but he don't because weaker. Lose potential don't mean lose power.

    "Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary"

    Here you miss the central point that is: the mist powerful jedi AND SITH.
    The sith is Vader, and here is called the most powerful Sith. No interpretations.

    Kemp is clearly referring to the fact that Palpatine is aware of the power of Vader again no interpretations.

    What Lucas said on Vanity Fair contradict what he said in several other occasions. But is not the argument, the argument is that Vader is stronger than anakin in episode 3 that is a Canon fact.

    I think the whole question of what is canon now is a real issue for people because of the way the franchise has gone since Disney bought it. But even if you are saying that because Disney gave Lucas 4 billions dollars, that they are now in control of canon, and can even override what he wrote/said - I still haven't seen any proof of what you are claiming from what you have provided - all I see is your interpretation of words that are not specific - these quotes you keep referring to don't actually provide proof of what you are saying - and if you can't understand why, and give better sources, I don't think there is a point in continuing this conversation. You saying something is canon and then offering no solid back up is not going to convince me, sorry... And I'm not even claiming I'm right that Anakin in ROTS would win in a fight against post Mustafar Vader - it's just my sense of it. It's just what I gather from Lucas saying that when Vader fought Obi-Wan in ANH that they were basically shells of their former selves. So show me direct evidence or we can just happily have our own opinions on the matter. I'm only claiming facts base on what was directly said by Lucas that addresses this very specifically; which is that Vader lost 60% of his power potential after Mustafar - otherwise you are free to think what you want about which one actually reached a more powerful state.


    I agree with ep. 3 Anakin being much stronger than Vader in suit. It,s pretty much logical that Vader as a half robot wasn’t able to do the same things as a healthy Anakin. Both physically and mentally Anakin had his strength more controlled than Vader, as if his suit got too damaged he would lose a lot of energy for trying to breath. It’s also easy to say that Vader was much slower in fighting than Anakin, as it was clearly shown in the movies. Vader was very strong with the force but versus the power of Anakin it wouldn’t be a match.

    Also, everything that Disney provides of Star Wars content, are non canon. Just making sure that non of you actually thinks someone besides George Lucas himself is able to do canon Star Wars.

    Then you are wrong. Is Canon that Vader is suit is stronger than episode 3 anakin. This in Lucas Canon, and in Disney Canon. Your opinion don't matter on Canon facts.

    Man, give up already, or offer us some actual proof. Whether or not Disney is canon is up to each person. But even if Disney is canon you haven't offered anything from any source that contradicts what Lucas said. You have offered no evidence just conjecture:

    "But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his Vader's arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."
    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.


    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor…"
    --George Lucas, Vanity Fair Interview, 2005.

    Oh my God, buddy, do you really have any trouble reading? What Lucas is saying here is that Anakin loses the potential to become what it was supposed to be. Losing potential is losing what you can become. It is not becoming weaker. Anakin / Vader after Mustafar will not reach its maximum potential, but it will still become much stronger than the times of episode 3. In the universe of Lucas it is very clear that Vader is stronger than Anakin in episode 3, but not as strong as it would be could become without the injuries. Is it clear to you now? I think this is clear to every star wars fan.

    And there are severals canon statements who explicitly say that Vader is stronger than Anakin in episode 3. You like Anakin more than Vader? Legit, but don't try to mystify the reality. I like Darth Maul more than Sidious but i can't say Maul is stronger only because i like him more.

    You’re wasting your time. It’s not that they can’t understand, it’s just that they simply refuse to.
  • awakespace
    939 posts Member
    edited February 26
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    Yodamain wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    The older hero's would of been fine had it not been for unnecessary nerfs, also Vader needs a serious buff if this is how anakin is going to be portrayed

    It has been established that Anakin would have been a much more powerful Force and lightsaber-user withoutthe suit. It makes sense that he is stronger than Vader, since the Vader's suit is very detrimental to his abilities.

    False. All of it.

    Actually it is accurate. Vader is a more polished/mature/calculating warrior, but he lost a lot of his inherent power after Mustafar. The suit does not add to his abilities but instead makes him more clunky. Sidious did this on purpose even though he had the option of giving him a suit more like Grievous.

    The suit means nothing. 19 years between RotS and ANH and Vader now grows in the force through dark side teachings. Anakin Skywalker did not become weaker in order to dominate the galaxy with Palpatine, but stronger, and continued to grow in strength as Darth Vader.

    Let's ask the guy who created Star Wars... According to George Lucas in a 2005 interview with Vanity Fair, Anakin’s potential strength was twice that of Sidious', until he was burned:

    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor… So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

    Sidious acknowledges that Anakin is more powerful than he is in several sources, but when he was burned on Mustafar, according to George Lucas, he lost approximately 60% of his force power

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity before Mustafar = 2x Sidious

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity after Mustafar = .8x Sidious

    And here is more of the same from George Lucas:

    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

    "The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

    Wait, wait.. sorry, without offense but you are manipulating all this or misurandestand all this. Vader with the suit is still more powerful than Anakin in episode 3.

    Lucas in this interview only says that Vader without his wounds would become even more powerful, he is not saying at all that he is not powerful or that he is not more powerful than Anakin in episode 3.
    Vader's potential continued to grow after the Mustafar incident. And it is Palpatine himself who recognizes that Vader becomes more powerful in the new comics that are canonical.
    So even if we still have to consider canonical these mini interviews to Lucas (who at other times contradicted himself on these issues) there is no doubt that canonically Vader is more powerful than the Anakin of episode 3. Vader is canonically the most powerful Sith along with Palpatine. And even in the new canon there are suggestions that put him above all at all. In this canonical material it is talked about by Kylo Ren in reference to Vader and it says:

    ''Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi and Sith, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy.''
    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

    Another canonical proof that makes it clear that Vader is more powerful than Anakin in episode 3 is this, where Vader muses that his injuries increased his connection to the Force, suggesting that he has become more powerful than he was as Anakin:

    ''VADER COMPLETED HIS MEDITATION and opened his eyes. His pale, flame-savaged face stared back at him from out of the reflective black surface of his pressurized meditation chamber. Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arm, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.
    He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight''.
    -- Lords Of The Sith

    Vader is Palpatine's most powerful emissary and a champion of the Dark Side:

    ''But the younger Skywalker’s life changed forever when he learned that not only was Anakin in fact a Jedi Knight who fought in the Clone Wars, but also that he subsequently became Darth Vader, the Emperor’s most feared and powerful emissary, and a champion of the dark side of the Force.''

    Palpatine describes Vader's powers as unparalleled:

    “Come, Darth Vader, you of all people should accept that some are born for greatness. That some are larger than life.”

    Vader remained silent.

    “Yes, Lord Vader.” Sidious softened his tone. “You are a true Sith, Lord Vader. Your dedication is unerring and your powers unparalleled. Perhaps, however, you are under the misimpression that only Sith and Jedi have trials to pass.”
    -- Tarkin
    Skyguy501 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    The older hero's would of been fine had it not been for unnecessary nerfs, also Vader needs a serious buff if this is how anakin is going to be portrayed

    It has been established that Anakin would have been a much more powerful Force and lightsaber-user withoutthe suit. It makes sense that he is stronger than Vader, since the Vader's suit is very detrimental to his abilities.

    False. All of it.

    Actually it is accurate. Vader is a more polished/mature/calculating warrior, but he lost a lot of his inherent power after Mustafar. The suit does not add to his abilities but instead makes him more clunky. Sidious did this on purpose even though he had the option of giving him a suit more like Grievous.

    The suit means nothing. 19 years between RotS and ANH and Vader now grows in the force through dark side teachings. Anakin Skywalker did not become weaker in order to dominate the galaxy with Palpatine, but stronger, and continued to grow in strength as Darth Vader.

    Let's ask the guy who created Star Wars... According to George Lucas in a 2005 interview with Vanity Fair, Anakin’s potential strength was twice that of Sidious', until he was burned:

    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor… So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

    Sidious acknowledges that Anakin is more powerful than he is in several sources, but when he was burned on Mustafar, according to George Lucas, he lost approximately 60% of his force power

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity before Mustafar = 2x Sidious

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity after Mustafar = .8x Sidious

    And here is more of the same from George Lucas:

    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

    "The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

    This. All of this is fact. This has been common knowledge way before Disney bought Lucasfilm Ltd. It also makes sense why the Emperor was eager to replace Vader with Luke. He’s younger, more agile, and more importantly, powerful. Everything he set up in Episode VI was so that he got exactly what he wanted. Except... because he’d gotten so used to getting what he wanted, his plans were undermined when Luke didn’t give in. Blinded by his rage and thirst for vengeance against Luke, it allowed Vader that one moment to overthrow his master, save his son and fulfill the prophesy of the Chosen One.

    Palpatine want Luke because is a Skywalker the son of Vader, and he hope he can obtain a Vader 2.0. But this not mean that Luke in episode 6 was already more powerful than Vader or that Vader wasn't more powerful than Anakin in episode 3 as i prove with canon statements above. Seem that some of you just underestimate Vader too much, i suggest to read this:

    https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/darth-vader-respect-thread-canon-1872153/

    All I am talking about is force potential - inherent force capacity. Not training, tactics, experience, skill, technique, knowledge, etc.

    This clearly states that Sidious has more force capacity than Vader after Mustafar. This clearly states that Luke could realize the potential that pre injury Vader could have, which indicates his force potential is much higher than post Mustafar Vader. And it clearly indicates that Vader lost 60% of his potential.

    That's it. Just the inherent force capacity.

    Everything else is not as clear and depends on what you allow into your own cannon or not. If it's just George then its that. If it's what Disney calls cannon then its that. And if it's all of it including the EU then that's fine too. It is an interesting question to wonder who would win. Episode 3 Anakin or Rogue One Vader. I'd personally still put my bets on Anakin, but you can do as you wish, and I won't tell you you are wrong, just that I have a different view.

    No you said that anakin in episode 3 is stronger than Vader and this not true in a Canon perspective for George or for Disney. In both Canon Vader is stronger than anakin in episode 3. Luke have the potential to be what Anakin would be without the injuries, but from what we see in this new Canon he don't seem to have surpassed Vader. In episode 6 Luke wasn't already stronger than Vader, he had the potential to surpass him, but he win only because Vader wasn't interested to kill him and because he fall in rage. Palpatine after Mustafar is stronger in the old Canon, while in the new Canon it is not clear as my Canon statements prove, indeed Vader
    Is stated as the most powerful Sith, suggesting that he is above Palpatine in power or potential:

    "Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

    But what it is truly Canon is that Vader killed Palpatine and have in himself still the possibility to kill him, indeed Palpatine know this. Paul S. Kemp stated that Palpatine deep down knows Vader's true potential and is wary of it. This would indicate that, in spite of his injuries, Vader's potential is still very high:

    "Somewhere in the back of Palpatine's mind, he knows what Vader's potential is. He feels he may be wrong, but he is wary of it. So he's very interested in determining his ability to manipulate Vader and testing his loyalty and assuring himself that this tiger that he holds by the tail is going to stay that way."

    -- Insider 157

    Definitely seem that you underestimate Vader in general.

    "No you said that anakin in episode 3 is stronger than Vader and this not true in a Canon perspective for George or for Disney. "

    I just reread everything I wrote and don't see where I said that... if I did, my mistake. What I was trying to show is that according to Lucas he lost 60% of his force potential after Mustafar - this isn't a matter of debate. Again I do personally think Anakin is stronger in ROTS than Vader ever is, but this is just an opinion based on the sources I respect as canon and is up to you to determine for yourself.

    " Luke have the potential to be what Anakin would be without the injuries"

    Yes, this is what I was trying to communicate all along - Anakin lost potential after the injuries

    "but from what we see in this new Canon he don't seem to have surpassed Vader"


    Again I'm was never claiming that I was the authority on who would win in a fight, I was talking about force potential.

    And again the new canon contradicts the old quite frequently. For instance Episode 8 alone does this a lot. e.g. Luke's character is completely different - as mark hammil says, "that's not my Luke Skywalker, he's Jake Skywalker."

    ""Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary"


    I think this is in accordance with what I've been saying, Anakin had incredible force potential, but the injuries on Mustar decreased this significantly. I don't think Anakin's injuries would affect his bloodline/****... And even if they did; Padme was pregnant before the injuries. I'm not sure of what you are trying to indicate with this quote...

    "Somewhere in the back of Palpatine's mind, he knows what Vader's potential is. He feels he may be wrong, but he is wary of it. So he's very interested in determining his ability to manipulate Vader and testing his loyalty and assuring himself that this tiger that he holds by the tail is going to stay that way."

    This isn't really specific. A baby with an Uzi is actually quite dangerous and has the potential to kill you. Kemp is not making it clear what type of potential he is referring to. He could easily be referring to Vader's potential to be treacherous.

    Lucas said Vader had 200% the force potential of Sidious before Mustafar, and 80% the force potential of Sidious after Mustafar. That is a clear and direct statement addressing the topic.

    All in all, I'm just pointing out what Lucas said

    Sorry but You are still continue to say that for you Anakin in ep. 3 is stronger than Vader, that is not true from a CANON perspective. Vader is stronger than Anakin in episode 3.

    Yes he lose potential after Mustafar, the potential to become even more powerful than what he became, but he don't because weaker. Lose potential don't mean lose power.

    "Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary"

    Here you miss the central point that is: the mist powerful jedi AND SITH.
    The sith is Vader, and here is called the most powerful Sith. No interpretations.

    Kemp is clearly referring to the fact that Palpatine is aware of the power of Vader again no interpretations.

    What Lucas said on Vanity Fair contradict what he said in several other occasions. But is not the argument, the argument is that Vader is stronger than anakin in episode 3 that is a Canon fact.

    I think the whole question of what is canon now is a real issue for people because of the way the franchise has gone since Disney bought it. But even if you are saying that because Disney gave Lucas 4 billions dollars, that they are now in control of canon, and can even override what he wrote/said - I still haven't seen any proof of what you are claiming from what you have provided - all I see is your interpretation of words that are not specific - these quotes you keep referring to don't actually provide proof of what you are saying - and if you can't understand why, and give better sources, I don't think there is a point in continuing this conversation. You saying something is canon and then offering no solid back up is not going to convince me, sorry... And I'm not even claiming I'm right that Anakin in ROTS would win in a fight against post Mustafar Vader - it's just my sense of it. It's just what I gather from Lucas saying that when Vader fought Obi-Wan in ANH that they were basically shells of their former selves. So show me direct evidence or we can just happily have our own opinions on the matter. I'm only claiming facts base on what was directly said by Lucas that addresses this very specifically; which is that Vader lost 60% of his power potential after Mustafar - otherwise you are free to think what you want about which one actually reached a more powerful state.


    I agree with ep. 3 Anakin being much stronger than Vader in suit. It,s pretty much logical that Vader as a half robot wasn’t able to do the same things as a healthy Anakin. Both physically and mentally Anakin had his strength more controlled than Vader, as if his suit got too damaged he would lose a lot of energy for trying to breath. It’s also easy to say that Vader was much slower in fighting than Anakin, as it was clearly shown in the movies. Vader was very strong with the force but versus the power of Anakin it wouldn’t be a match.

    Also, everything that Disney provides of Star Wars content, are non canon. Just making sure that non of you actually thinks someone besides George Lucas himself is able to do canon Star Wars.

    Then you are wrong. Is Canon that Vader is suit is stronger than episode 3 anakin. This in Lucas Canon, and in Disney Canon. Your opinion don't matter on Canon facts.

    Man, give up already, or offer us some actual proof. Whether or not Disney is canon is up to each person. But even if Disney is canon you haven't offered anything from any source that contradicts what Lucas said. You have offered no evidence just conjecture:

    "But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his Vader's arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."
    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.


    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor…"
    --George Lucas, Vanity Fair Interview, 2005.

    Oh my God, buddy, do you really have any trouble reading? What Lucas is saying here is that Anakin loses the potential to become what it was supposed to be. Losing potential is losing what you can become. It is not becoming weaker. Anakin / Vader after Mustafar will not reach its maximum potential, but it will still become much stronger than the times of episode 3. In the universe of Lucas it is very clear that Vader is stronger than Anakin in episode 3, but not as strong as it would be could become without the injuries. Is it clear to you now? I think this is clear to every star wars fan.

    And there are severals canon statements who explicitly say that Vader is stronger than Anakin in episode 3. You like Anakin more than Vader? Legit, but don't try to mystify the reality. I like Darth Maul more than Sidious but i can't say Maul is stronger only because i like him more.

    You’re wasting your time. It’s not that they can’t understand, it’s just that they simply refuse to.

    Hi there. This is a real request - I'm not trying to be snarky. If you agree with DarthCapa2 and believe there is any info to back up what he is claiming, can you show me? Please. I really really would love to understand why he believes this; and if you also do and can shed light, please do. I'd be happy for Vader to be more powerful, and actually never liked that Lucas limited his force power to his body's condition.

    Can you please reconcile what DarthCapa2 is saying:

    "In the universe of Lucas it is very clear that Vader is stronger than Anakin in episode 3."

    With what Lucas says:

    "But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his Vader's arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku".


    If Vader was only as strong as Dooku - then he is not stronger than Anakin - Anakin defeated Dooku

    If I'm missing something, please enlighten me.

  • Honestly guys,... who cares?
    awakespace wrote: »
    Raices wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    Yodamain wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    DarthCapa2 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    The older hero's would of been fine had it not been for unnecessary nerfs, also Vader needs a serious buff if this is how anakin is going to be portrayed

    It has been established that Anakin would have been a much more powerful Force and lightsaber-user withoutthe suit. It makes sense that he is stronger than Vader, since the Vader's suit is very detrimental to his abilities.

    False. All of it.

    Actually it is accurate. Vader is a more polished/mature/calculating warrior, but he lost a lot of his inherent power after Mustafar. The suit does not add to his abilities but instead makes him more clunky. Sidious did this on purpose even though he had the option of giving him a suit more like Grievous.

    The suit means nothing. 19 years between RotS and ANH and Vader now grows in the force through dark side teachings. Anakin Skywalker did not become weaker in order to dominate the galaxy with Palpatine, but stronger, and continued to grow in strength as Darth Vader.

    Let's ask the guy who created Star Wars... According to George Lucas in a 2005 interview with Vanity Fair, Anakin’s potential strength was twice that of Sidious', until he was burned:

    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor… So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

    Sidious acknowledges that Anakin is more powerful than he is in several sources, but when he was burned on Mustafar, according to George Lucas, he lost approximately 60% of his force power

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity before Mustafar = 2x Sidious

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity after Mustafar = .8x Sidious

    And here is more of the same from George Lucas:

    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

    "The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

    Wait, wait.. sorry, without offense but you are manipulating all this or misurandestand all this. Vader with the suit is still more powerful than Anakin in episode 3.

    Lucas in this interview only says that Vader without his wounds would become even more powerful, he is not saying at all that he is not powerful or that he is not more powerful than Anakin in episode 3.
    Vader's potential continued to grow after the Mustafar incident. And it is Palpatine himself who recognizes that Vader becomes more powerful in the new comics that are canonical.
    So even if we still have to consider canonical these mini interviews to Lucas (who at other times contradicted himself on these issues) there is no doubt that canonically Vader is more powerful than the Anakin of episode 3. Vader is canonically the most powerful Sith along with Palpatine. And even in the new canon there are suggestions that put him above all at all. In this canonical material it is talked about by Kylo Ren in reference to Vader and it says:

    ''Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi and Sith, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy.''
    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

    Another canonical proof that makes it clear that Vader is more powerful than Anakin in episode 3 is this, where Vader muses that his injuries increased his connection to the Force, suggesting that he has become more powerful than he was as Anakin:

    ''VADER COMPLETED HIS MEDITATION and opened his eyes. His pale, flame-savaged face stared back at him from out of the reflective black surface of his pressurized meditation chamber. Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arm, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.
    He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight''.
    -- Lords Of The Sith

    Vader is Palpatine's most powerful emissary and a champion of the Dark Side:

    ''But the younger Skywalker’s life changed forever when he learned that not only was Anakin in fact a Jedi Knight who fought in the Clone Wars, but also that he subsequently became Darth Vader, the Emperor’s most feared and powerful emissary, and a champion of the dark side of the Force.''

    Palpatine describes Vader's powers as unparalleled:

    “Come, Darth Vader, you of all people should accept that some are born for greatness. That some are larger than life.”

    Vader remained silent.

    “Yes, Lord Vader.” Sidious softened his tone. “You are a true Sith, Lord Vader. Your dedication is unerring and your powers unparalleled. Perhaps, however, you are under the misimpression that only Sith and Jedi have trials to pass.”
    -- Tarkin
    Skyguy501 wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    awakespace wrote: »
    The older hero's would of been fine had it not been for unnecessary nerfs, also Vader needs a serious buff if this is how anakin is going to be portrayed

    It has been established that Anakin would have been a much more powerful Force and lightsaber-user withoutthe suit. It makes sense that he is stronger than Vader, since the Vader's suit is very detrimental to his abilities.

    False. All of it.

    Actually it is accurate. Vader is a more polished/mature/calculating warrior, but he lost a lot of his inherent power after Mustafar. The suit does not add to his abilities but instead makes him more clunky. Sidious did this on purpose even though he had the option of giving him a suit more like Grievous.

    The suit means nothing. 19 years between RotS and ANH and Vader now grows in the force through dark side teachings. Anakin Skywalker did not become weaker in order to dominate the galaxy with Palpatine, but stronger, and continued to grow in strength as Darth Vader.

    Let's ask the guy who created Star Wars... According to George Lucas in a 2005 interview with Vanity Fair, Anakin’s potential strength was twice that of Sidious', until he was burned:

    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor… So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

    Sidious acknowledges that Anakin is more powerful than he is in several sources, but when he was burned on Mustafar, according to George Lucas, he lost approximately 60% of his force power

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity before Mustafar = 2x Sidious

    Anakin's/Vader's force capacity after Mustafar = .8x Sidious

    And here is more of the same from George Lucas:

    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

    "The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

    This. All of this is fact. This has been common knowledge way before Disney bought Lucasfilm Ltd. It also makes sense why the Emperor was eager to replace Vader with Luke. He’s younger, more agile, and more importantly, powerful. Everything he set up in Episode VI was so that he got exactly what he wanted. Except... because he’d gotten so used to getting what he wanted, his plans were undermined when Luke didn’t give in. Blinded by his rage and thirst for vengeance against Luke, it allowed Vader that one moment to overthrow his master, save his son and fulfill the prophesy of the Chosen One.

    Palpatine want Luke because is a Skywalker the son of Vader, and he hope he can obtain a Vader 2.0. But this not mean that Luke in episode 6 was already more powerful than Vader or that Vader wasn't more powerful than Anakin in episode 3 as i prove with canon statements above. Seem that some of you just underestimate Vader too much, i suggest to read this:

    https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/darth-vader-respect-thread-canon-1872153/

    All I am talking about is force potential - inherent force capacity. Not training, tactics, experience, skill, technique, knowledge, etc.

    This clearly states that Sidious has more force capacity than Vader after Mustafar. This clearly states that Luke could realize the potential that pre injury Vader could have, which indicates his force potential is much higher than post Mustafar Vader. And it clearly indicates that Vader lost 60% of his potential.

    That's it. Just the inherent force capacity.

    Everything else is not as clear and depends on what you allow into your own cannon or not. If it's just George then its that. If it's what Disney calls cannon then its that. And if it's all of it including the EU then that's fine too. It is an interesting question to wonder who would win. Episode 3 Anakin or Rogue One Vader. I'd personally still put my bets on Anakin, but you can do as you wish, and I won't tell you you are wrong, just that I have a different view.

    No you said that anakin in episode 3 is stronger than Vader and this not true in a Canon perspective for George or for Disney. In both Canon Vader is stronger than anakin in episode 3. Luke have the potential to be what Anakin would be without the injuries, but from what we see in this new Canon he don't seem to have surpassed Vader. In episode 6 Luke wasn't already stronger than Vader, he had the potential to surpass him, but he win only because Vader wasn't interested to kill him and because he fall in rage. Palpatine after Mustafar is stronger in the old Canon, while in the new Canon it is not clear as my Canon statements prove, indeed Vader
    Is stated as the most powerful Sith, suggesting that he is above Palpatine in power or potential:

    "Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

    But what it is truly Canon is that Vader killed Palpatine and have in himself still the possibility to kill him, indeed Palpatine know this. Paul S. Kemp stated that Palpatine deep down knows Vader's true potential and is wary of it. This would indicate that, in spite of his injuries, Vader's potential is still very high:

    "Somewhere in the back of Palpatine's mind, he knows what Vader's potential is. He feels he may be wrong, but he is wary of it. So he's very interested in determining his ability to manipulate Vader and testing his loyalty and assuring himself that this tiger that he holds by the tail is going to stay that way."

    -- Insider 157

    Definitely seem that you underestimate Vader in general.

    "No you said that anakin in episode 3 is stronger than Vader and this not true in a Canon perspective for George or for Disney. "

    I just reread everything I wrote and don't see where I said that... if I did, my mistake. What I was trying to show is that according to Lucas he lost 60% of his force potential after Mustafar - this isn't a matter of debate. Again I do personally think Anakin is stronger in ROTS than Vader ever is, but this is just an opinion based on the sources I respect as canon and is up to you to determine for yourself.

    " Luke have the potential to be what Anakin would be without the injuries"

    Yes, this is what I was trying to communicate all along - Anakin lost potential after the injuries

    "but from what we see in this new Canon he don't seem to have surpassed Vader"


    Again I'm was never claiming that I was the authority on who would win in a fight, I was talking about force potential.

    And again the new canon contradicts the old quite frequently. For instance Episode 8 alone does this a lot. e.g. Luke's character is completely different - as mark hammil says, "that's not my Luke Skywalker, he's Jake Skywalker."

    ""Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary"


    I think this is in accordance with what I've been saying, Anakin had incredible force potential, but the injuries on Mustar decreased this significantly. I don't think Anakin's injuries would affect his bloodline/****... And even if they did; Padme was pregnant before the injuries. I'm not sure of what you are trying to indicate with this quote...

    "Somewhere in the back of Palpatine's mind, he knows what Vader's potential is. He feels he may be wrong, but he is wary of it. So he's very interested in determining his ability to manipulate Vader and testing his loyalty and assuring himself that this tiger that he holds by the tail is going to stay that way."

    This isn't really specific. A baby with an Uzi is actually quite dangerous and has the potential to kill you. Kemp is not making it clear what type of potential he is referring to. He could easily be referring to Vader's potential to be treacherous.

    Lucas said Vader had 200% the force potential of Sidious before Mustafar, and 80% the force potential of Sidious after Mustafar. That is a clear and direct statement addressing the topic.

    All in all, I'm just pointing out what Lucas said

    Sorry but You are still continue to say that for you Anakin in ep. 3 is stronger than Vader, that is not true from a CANON perspective. Vader is stronger than Anakin in episode 3.

    Yes he lose potential after Mustafar, the potential to become even more powerful than what he became, but he don't because weaker. Lose potential don't mean lose power.

    "Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi AND SITH, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy."

    -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary"

    Here you miss the central point that is: the mist powerful jedi AND SITH.
    The sith is Vader, and here is called the most powerful Sith. No interpretations.

    Kemp is clearly referring to the fact that Palpatine is aware of the power of Vader again no interpretations.

    What Lucas said on Vanity Fair contradict what he said in several other occasions. But is not the argument, the argument is that Vader is stronger than anakin in episode 3 that is a Canon fact.

    I think the whole question of what is canon now is a real issue for people because of the way the franchise has gone since Disney bought it. But even if you are saying that because Disney gave Lucas 4 billions dollars, that they are now in control of canon, and can even override what he wrote/said - I still haven't seen any proof of what you are claiming from what you have provided - all I see is your interpretation of words that are not specific - these quotes you keep referring to don't actually provide proof of what you are saying - and if you can't understand why, and give better sources, I don't think there is a point in continuing this conversation. You saying something is canon and then offering no solid back up is not going to convince me, sorry... And I'm not even claiming I'm right that Anakin in ROTS would win in a fight against post Mustafar Vader - it's just my sense of it. It's just what I gather from Lucas saying that when Vader fought Obi-Wan in ANH that they were basically shells of their former selves. So show me direct evidence or we can just happily have our own opinions on the matter. I'm only claiming facts base on what was directly said by Lucas that addresses this very specifically; which is that Vader lost 60% of his power potential after Mustafar - otherwise you are free to think what you want about which one actually reached a more powerful state.


    I agree with ep. 3 Anakin being much stronger than Vader in suit. It,s pretty much logical that Vader as a half robot wasn’t able to do the same things as a healthy Anakin. Both physically and mentally Anakin had his strength more controlled than Vader, as if his suit got too damaged he would lose a lot of energy for trying to breath. It’s also easy to say that Vader was much slower in fighting than Anakin, as it was clearly shown in the movies. Vader was very strong with the force but versus the power of Anakin it wouldn’t be a match.

    Also, everything that Disney provides of Star Wars content, are non canon. Just making sure that non of you actually thinks someone besides George Lucas himself is able to do canon Star Wars.

    Then you are wrong. Is Canon that Vader is suit is stronger than episode 3 anakin. This in Lucas Canon, and in Disney Canon. Your opinion don't matter on Canon facts.

    Man, give up already, or offer us some actual proof. Whether or not Disney is canon is up to each person. But even if Disney is canon you haven't offered anything from any source that contradicts what Lucas said. You have offered no evidence just conjecture:

    "But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his Vader's arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."
    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.


    “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor…"
    --George Lucas, Vanity Fair Interview, 2005.

    Have you read the recent Vader comics?

    Some of them, yes, but not everything. What are you referring to exactly. Like when he took on that entire rebel platoon by himself? That was definitely cool. Is there anything that you are referring to? I agree that he looks really powerful in the comics, but comics and cartoons tend to do that with characters. I'm sure if there were comics of Anakin or Palpatine there would be really crazy scenes too.

  • Pretty sure Kylo doesn't need a buff. Go back to old settings when even the cheats could get killed.
  • I can't wait for all the rest of the heroes to be rebalanced and brought up to the new bar set by Anakin's power level.
  • Idk if anyone has mentioned or noticed but I've been in multiple geonosis matches where even if the clones have the objective active on the first phase and they run out of tickets they instantly lose without overtime
  • Looking good so far after download, this is what updates and releases should be, thank you for the effort put in.
  • Sooooo good!!! This is quality stuff my guys! Thank you for all your hard work on this update. The only thing it's missing is the clone wars armor but hopefully you guys have that in store for us cause it would be weird to have Clone Wars Obi Wan but not CW Anakin
  • fzhang6
    8 posts Member
    edited February 28
    950 as Vader, just spawned in, immediately takes 700 damage and I'm down to 250 health.
    Post edited by fzhang6 on
  • It's bad enough playing as a grunt versus a hero / villain --- why then are damages versus grunts 50% HIGHER than those dealt to other Villains? Do grunts somehow bleed more profusely?

    If I had to guess, EA/DICE is trying to minimize grunts (85% of players) and maximize heroes & villains (the 15%).
  • I'm sure the objective function will override the lightsaber ignition function when you're at an objective.

    I cannot recall the last time I saw a Hero/Villain play the objective in GA.. 100% of the time, they are out to slaughter the meek and far whimpier grunts, somehow making themselves feel empowered.
  • awakespace wrote: »

    Hi there. This is a real request - I'm not trying to be snarky. If you agree with DarthCapa2 and believe there is any info to back up what he is claiming, can you show me? Please. I really really would love to understand why he believes this; and if you also do and can shed light, please do. I'd be happy for Vader to be more powerful, and actually never liked that Lucas limited his force power to his body's condition.

    Can you please reconcile what DarthCapa2 is saying:

    "In the universe of Lucas it is very clear that Vader is stronger than Anakin in episode 3."

    With what Lucas says:

    "But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his Vader's arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku".


    If Vader was only as strong as Dooku - then he is not stronger than Anakin - Anakin defeated Dooku

    If I'm missing something, please enlighten me.

    At this point you just don't want understand, as others said. My God, you put a phrase of Lucas where he don't say that Anakin in episode 3 is stronger than Vader. And when he say he is like Maul or Dooku is refer more to his position and conditions not to his power. Vader is officially more powerful than Maul and Dooku. Lucas stated that Kenobi, Maul and Dooku are level 8 while Yoda, Sidious and Vader are level 9. Vader He is said to be the most powerful apprendice of Sidious, in rebels Maul said clearly that he can't beat Vader, and Dooku lose to Anakin that is weaker than Vader confirmed. Stop to manipulate one single phrase of Lucas of 13 years ago where he don't say what you are trying to say.

    And just read the Darth Vader respect thread that is Canon if really want know how much you underestimate Vader, otherwise you are here to troll at this point. Regards.
  • Only played with him a few times today but scary how powerful he is. There was a game in Starkiller phase 2 where I spawned as a full health Dooku, turned the corner to the top of the stairs and died instantly. As in 3 seconds after I spawned. I guess Anakin was at the base of the stairs and my team was shooting him >_<

    I mean that's a little nuts....
  • Thats_a_BINGO
    3 posts Member
    edited February 28
    @bcuts13

    Yep, check out this Video which i did.
    Its insane, Anakin is able to instakill al Heroes in H vs V which is a absolute gamebreaker, obviously!
    He needs to get fixed ASAP !

    Video:
  • @bcuts13

    Yep, check out this Video which i did.
    Its insane, Anakin is able to instakill al Heroes in H vs V which is a absolute gamebreaker, obviously!
    He needs to get fixed ASAP !

    Video:

    Don't forget once people learn NOT to attack whilst he is doing this it wont be as effective on them, and sabre players can block it
  • jonci wrote: »
    @bcuts13

    Yep, check out this Video which i did.
    Its insane, Anakin is able to instakill al Heroes in H vs V which is a absolute gamebreaker, obviously!
    He needs to get fixed ASAP !

    Video:

    Don't forget once people learn NOT to attack whilst he is doing this it wont be as effective on them, and sabre players can block it

    There are always people who will attack cuz there are only casuals ^^ lmao
  • Anyone else had issues with Anakin levelling up?? I was in the 20's earlier today and when I logged back in he was down to 16
    My youtube channel Star Wars Battlefront, Battlefield 4 etc gameplay https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCF4zDYJfLp_rvcKzALVEXHA?view_as=subscriber
  • Oh boy this is just funny at this point, i really did not want to waste time and write negatively but i have to... Anakin is here yeah very nice only one problem i never played him 30 hours later i have played about 7 hours since it was released and i did not touch it even once congrats ea you made it.. You must be so proud of yourself you made people buy a Hero they dont get to play with until everyone is bored from.. I paid 35k for anakin plus 40k for robes that is 75k credits that i spend just to not be able to enjoy the new Hero.. On top of that block spammers and runners are at the top of there game since you refuse to update arcade and allow everyone to level there Heroes there this is what happens spammers and **** people will brake the game... Now i dont even want to complain about how op Anakin is to me seem like balanced enemy problem is, the game it self was design to be grind and a lot of that grind is not really a need anymore since you only profit from selling crystals/ and new skins so for the love of god give people better HVV and option for everyone to enjoy the game.. There tons of players suffering from this issues and not only your new heroes arrive one by one 30 days part from each other but on top of that LV system is awful Grind is just beyond stupid Because of old players LV40 and one Hero takes forever to level and when it is new is even worse.. Campers need to be in there own category not with sabers because they brake the game for everyone Chewey ,Boba, iden, Lando, Han, Boisk, Fin, Palpatine...
    Just make them in there own category or live them For GA not letting them mess a good game just because one knows how to camp / shoot.. We have enough sabers now to have fun with them in HVV its star wars game because of the saber and force users, Game logic fin can kill Vader ? Wtf how why in what world they are even remotely in the same category Vader is Force user probably the strongest as well as anakin and fin is a stormtroper how is a here ? Iden the same story a **** stun bot and dual shot gun cant match a saber user or force user considering in the movies those dont get near to fight with jedi or Sith look at fin went after Kylo with one hit kylo puts him in coma took him a hole movie to wake TF up... I understand that when game was lunched you guys did not plan for it to that long here but now that we actually get somewhat of game two years later would be really nice to actually fix it....... Or maybe just so it could be fair for everyone remove Leveling and everyone uses the same LV and just picks the cards they need fair way for all new and old players to play no level grind no session jumping no worry on how to Level Anakin or other hero just plain simple playing.. That way players will enjoy and play with but they don't have to worry on how would they level cards ETC they will play it and move on so everyone could play it...
    Please Just next update take time to Balance this problems..
  • SupremeAlex
    1 posts Member
    edited March 1
    Good day developers! I'm from Ukraine. From the first days of the release of the game SWBII (2017) I play and enjoy the game. But I have a suggestion for you. A long time ago I played SWBII (2005) and there was a mission to attack the temple (order 66) I really liked Anakin with a raincoat and hood, and it would be great if you added the image / image of Anakin with the hood to the game! But if there is an opportunity to make Anakin not only in the Jedi robe and hood, but also in a raincoat and hood as it was in SWBII (2005), that is, that Anakin had a raincoat like Count Dooku and a hood =) It would be great if you add a hood to Count Dooku too. I will be very grateful to you and very happy if such images of characters appear in the game soon! I hope my post will be read and the voice will be heard by you. Perhaps the image of Anakin will be similar to the unofficial mod of Luke Skywalker as in this image in my post ?! I apologize for my English and thank you in advance for your attention =)
    cmw9pam2ud8b.jpg
    bcs29yu8vp1b.jpeg
  • Anakin is a good character with good a bilities but he is super super op owerful saber strikes even more powerful strike ability but i dont like how his choke does all that damage and even worse than that when holds rb an we keep hitting him it does barly anything he absorbed all grevais shots and this is an untouched 800 hp grevais btw he it me will one hit an i died instantly noone can win a game because his insane damage new people can best skilled people by useing one ability and to make things even worse he has starcards that increase his saber and abilities range and damage. 'Help me obi wan Kenobi you're my only hope'
  • Anakin is a good character with good a bilities but he is super super op owerful saber strikes even more powerful strike ability but i dont like how his choke does all that damage and even worse than that when holds rb an we keep hitting him it does barly anything he absorbed all grevais shots and this is an untouched 800 hp grevais btw he it me will one hit an i died instantly noone can win a game because his insane damage new people can best skilled people by useing one ability and to make things even worse he has starcards that increase his saber and abilities range and damage. 'Help me obi wan Kenobi you're my only hope'
  • Maybe even a Gungan her like Jar Jar's bombad General friend. How about Mando guards & Deathwatch,With Sateem's sister as aplayable heroe. We need at least 5 new battlefields per era.More Jedi, Bounty Hunter & Droid heroes.like Dirge, Cad Bane & Au ra Singh.Mostly, give us Jango.
  • I understand anakin is meant to be very strong but they didnt make luke strong they weakened him and anyone who knows the story after return of the jedi known he is the strongest jedi to have ever lived it is a game he should match others not dwarf them because people that play wilth skill and precision should not lose to one exstremly op ability in one button pressed if they were keeping it law friendly han would stand no chance of winning but he does
  • ue1ujiyxszl3.png

    Incoming Transmission
    “You are strong and wise, Anakin, and I am very proud of you. I have trained you since you were a small boy. I have taught you everything I know, and you have become a far greater Jedi than I could ever hope to be.”
    — Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi to Jedi Knight Anakin Skywalker, Revenge of the Sith

    Few truly knew Anakin Skywalker, though many spoke of him and his countless feats during the Clone Wars. Hero of the Republic and one of the most valiant Jedi Knight on any battlefront, Anakin’s story is one of tragedy and longing, but also one of hope and love.

    His power and skill were virtually unmatched, though his overconfidence and anger could get the better of him. Even still, when innocent people were in danger, he would never hesitate to put his life on the line to save them; when his friends needed his help, he wouldn’t abandon them.

    x73ln53li0d2.jpg

    Bringing Anakin Skywalker to Star Wars™ Battlefront™ II

    With the arrival of the Chosen One comes one of the strongest light side hero in Battlefront II. Anakin’s ability to unleash a barrage of fast, devastating attacks is unlike any other Jedi and set him on another level. While his offence is practically unmatched, his defensive capabilities aren’t up to the same calibre. Anakin won’t be able to sustain his blocking for as long as some other light side heroes against lightsaber strikes, but he is still very adept at deflecting blaster bolts. His lightsaber attacks deal 140 base damage (+40 from behind). Additionally, Anakin has a base health pool of 800 HP and a base regen pool of 250 HP.

    Quick to anger at times, Anakin’s Passionate Strike is an overwhelming vertical slash that he’s used in many fights during the Clone Wars to break through his enemy’s guard, just as he did against Count Dooku before “disarming” him. Even the strongest Sith Lord’s block will be rendered useless against this heavy attack, so timing it well is key to taking down opponents as it will deal full damage against a blocking enemy. This ability deals base damage of 180 to heroes and 250 to non-heroes.

    Anakin isn’t limited only to his prowess with a lightsaber. Tapping into his incredible powers with the Force, Anakin can unleash a powerful Force blast all around him, similar to what he did against the Son and Daughter while his friends were being held against their will. While using his Heroic Might ability, Anakin steels himself in place and focuses on concentrating the Force within him, charging the ability while taking a damage reduction of 90%. During this time, the radius for this ability will increase. However, the radius will also increase passively as Anakin funnels the damage he would otherwise take while charging the ability. With the ever-increasing blast zone, the damage the ability deals will also increase exponentially up to a maximum of 400 damage and a minimum of 100 to heroes or 130 to non-heroes. The radius increases by 1m for every 50 damage Anakin takes (before damage reduction is taken into account). When he’s ready, Anakin will thrust both hands out and release his power, hitting all enemies around him.

    However, should you wish to bring the enemy to you rather than launch them away, Pull Dominance allows Anakin to reach out and heave his enemies towards him, similarly to how he did against Barriss Offee when she betrayed the Jedi Order. Any foes caught in this attack will be ripped into the air and dropped down in front of him in the range and at the mercy of his powerful lightsaber strikes. This ability does base damage of 70 to heroes and 100 to non-heroes.

    Some might say Anakin’s strength was also his greatest weakness as it too often went hand-in-hand with his rage. Unlike many other heroes, Anakin has a fourth ability, one which is darker in nature than his others.

    As Anakin and his allies take damage and as he inflicts damage to his foes, his raw power will build alongside his fury. Once this ability is fully charged, Anakin will be able to unleash his Retribution onto any enemies unlucky enough to be in range. Anakin will be punished his enemies with a Force choke similar to Darth Vader’s ability, except this one, like Heroic Might, has a 360° area of effect and will affect all enemies in its area of effect.

    Upon use, the charge resets and can be built up once again. This ability does 100 damage over time to heroes and 150 damage to non-heroes. As his anger flows through him, Anakin takes 90% damage reduction during this ability’s duration, too.


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    Anakin unleashes a heavy strike, breaking his opponent's guard and dealing high damage.

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    Anakin is more resistant to attack while holding the ability. When released, he pushes enemies away from him, the range and strength of his attack being multiplied by the damage he would typically be susceptible to.

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    Anakin pulls enemies in front of him to a center point, leaving them open for attacks.

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    Anakin’s powers intensify whenever he and any nearby allies are attacked, building towards the ultimate punishment of a swift and inescapable grip seizing all enemies around him.


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    Name: TENACIOUS
    Effects: Health increase
    Description: Anakin Skywalker has increased maximum health.
    -
    Name: REPRISAL
    Effects: Health recovery
    Description: Whenever Anakin Skywalker defeats an enemy trooper he regains 20 health. Whenever he defeats an enemy hero, he regains even more.
    -
    Name: MASSIVE STRIKES
    Effects: Lightsaber damage increase
    Description: Anakin Skywalker deals more damage with his lightsaber attacks.
    -
    Name: PRESSURE
    Effects: PASSIONATE STRIKE damage increase
    Description: PASSIONATE STRIKE deals more damage.
    -
    Name: FIERCE FIGHTER
    Effects: PASSIONATE STRIKE cooldown reduction
    Description: Cooldown time for PASSIONATE STRIKE is reduced.
    -
    Name: CONTROL THE FORCE
    Effects: HEROIC MIGHT radius increase
    Description: The radius of HEROIC MIGHT is larger
    -
    Name: RAW STRENGTH
    Effects: HEROIC MIGHT damage increase
    Description: HEROIC MIGHT deals more damage.
    -
    Name: NO ESCAPE
    Effects: PULL DOMINANCE distance increase
    Description: PULL DOMINANCE has a greater range.
    -
    Name: ALL OF THEM
    Effects: PULL DOMINANCE damage increase
    Description: PULL DOMINANCE deals more damage to each affected target.

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    • This is Skywalker, on site and ready to assist.
    • You underestimate my power.
    • Surrender. I won't tell you again.
    • (To Dooku) You’re going to pay for all the Jedi that you killed, Dooku.
    • (To Grievous) What's the matter? Someone forget to change your battery?
    • (To Vader) I will not give in to you. Ever!
      (Obi-Wan and Anakin)
    • [O] Why do I get the feeling you're going to be the death of me?
    • [A] Don't say that, Master.
      (Grievous and Anakin)
    • [G] I expected someone with your reputation to be a little... older.
    • [A] General Grievous. You're shorter than I expected.
      (Dooku and Anakin)
    • [D] Brave of you, boy. But I would have thought you had learned your lesson.
    • [A] I am a slow learner.

    And, of course….
    • I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating...and it gets everywhere.

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    • I AM READY
    • I’LL TAKE YOU NOW
    • ONWARD
    • BRACE


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    • Fun – This is where the fun begins
    • Diplomatic – You call this a diplomatic solution?
    • Obi-Wan – Obi-Wan’s gonna kill me.
    • Wise Jedi – A wise Jedi once said, “Nothing happens by accident.”

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    • PASSION – Defeat 30 enemies with the IMPASSIONATE STRIKE ability.
    • STRENGTH – Defeat 50 enemies with the HEROIC IMPACT ability.
    • POWER – Hit 30 enemies with the PULL DOMINANCE ability.
    • EXPERIENCED ANAKIN SKYWALKER – Earn 122,721 score as Anakin Skywalker.
    • VETERAN ANAKIN SKYWALKER – Earn 389,809 score as Anakin Skywalker.

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    • Jedi Knight (default) – Based on his appearance from Episode III
    • Jedi Robes – Based on Anakin’s robed appearance in Episode III
    ________________________________________________________


    Anakin will soon be deploying onto the battlefront with his loyal 501st Battalion on 27 February 2019. He will be available for 35,000 credits. The 501st Battalion clone legion armours will individually be available for 20,000 credits/500 Crystals (Phase II) or 5,000 credits/100 Crystals (Phase I). They can also be purchased in a Phase II bundle for 60,000 credits or 1,500 crystals.

    We’ll be back next week with a full look at the February update and all that you can expect from it. Stay tuned for the next Community Transmission!

    Charlemagne, signing off.

  • How to ruin a game in 1 Step: Completely unbalance game so nobody wants to play one side.

    GENIUS!!!!!!!
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