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Good vs. Evil

Dear Jedi Padawins, Sith Lords, and Tauntaun Scavengers,

Anakin Skywalker is here! But now, my mind is stumped now that there are two Darth Vaders that could have the possibility to battle each other in the game now. Moreover, who would win in a fight? Anakin Skywalker or Darth Vader?

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Replies

  • Anakin Skywalker vs Darth Vader. That would be an interesting fight. I am also curious to see what people think and the reason behind their choice.
    Failed to connect to EA Online.
  • DarthJ
    6687 posts Member
    hmmm...theoretically, if Anakin had of reached his potential, we would be saying Anakin no question.

    However, based on what we know in the saga....

    Anakin to the point of Episode 3 - is obviously more mobile so I would say in terms of actual lightsaber skills he would be ahead of Vader.

    BUT Vader for me is more attuned with the force, since that was his main focus post-suit. Obviously still a formidable fighter, but his force skills were far better.

    Too hard to call for me.
    PSN: ibrajoker59
  • AzorAhai
    1359 posts Member
    Personally, I think it's a given that had he not been severely injured by Obi-wan, whether he remained Jedi or Sith, future Anakin/Vader would have been more powerful than OT Vader.

    As it stands though, I suppose this is something of a judgment/opinion call, but I don't believe for a second that Vader stopped growing in power over the years. He may have had a period of adjustment with his new limbs and armor where the pre-Vader Anakin would have been more powerful than him, but by the time we see him in the OT, he's far superior in power than Anakin ever was.

    My 7 year old is a HUGE fan of Anakin (Clone Wars!) and several months ago, I asked her (in a neutral, unleading manner), "Who do you think is more powerful Anakin Skywalker or Darth Vader?"

    "Obviously Darth Vader," was her answer.
  • This argument again...

    Darth Vader knows everything that Anakin does. Everything. There are many things that Darth Vader knows that Anakin doesn’t. Including combat, and the ways of the force.

    Darth Vader knows everything about Anakin. Everything. Anakin Skywalker knows absolutely nothing about Darth Vader. Including combat experience and and a deeper understanding of the force.

    Anakin grew up and developed to a point, and then ceased to exist. Darth Vader assumed all of that development and growth, and then added two decades of further growth and development.

    There is no argument.
  • Everyone here seems to think that Vader would win, but I think I'll side with Anakin. Here's why:
    This argument again...

    Darth Vader knows everything that Anakin does. Everything. There are many things that Darth Vader knows that Anakin doesn’t. Including combat, and the ways of the force.

    Darth Vader knows everything about Anakin. Everything. Anakin Skywalker knows absolutely nothing about Darth Vader. Including combat experience and and a deeper understanding of the force.

    Anakin grew up and developed to a point, and then ceased to exist. Darth Vader assumed all of that development and growth, and then added two decades of further growth and development.

    There is no argument.

    You assume that Vader has everything that Anakin has, which is most certainly not true. Vader is clearly slower and more clunky than Anakin. Vader had to change his fighting style, because he simply no longer had the speed or reflexes to fight like he did as Anakin.
  • Darth_Vapor3
    4219 posts Member
    edited March 1
    Everyone here seems to think that Vader would win, but I think I'll side with Anakin. Here's why:
    This argument again...

    Darth Vader knows everything that Anakin does. Everything. There are many things that Darth Vader knows that Anakin doesn’t. Including combat, and the ways of the force.

    Darth Vader knows everything about Anakin. Everything. Anakin Skywalker knows absolutely nothing about Darth Vader. Including combat experience and and a deeper understanding of the force.

    Anakin grew up and developed to a point, and then ceased to exist. Darth Vader assumed all of that development and growth, and then added two decades of further growth and development.

    There is no argument.

    You assume that Vader has everything that Anakin has, which is most certainly not true. Vader is clearly slower and more clunky than Anakin. Vader had to change his fighting style, because he simply no longer had the speed or reflexes to fight like he did as Anakin.

    I will concede your points, as far as simple physical ability is concerned. I will take the older, more experienced Vader, fully disciplined in both the light and dark side of the force. Anakin could run faster with better reflexes. Ok. He wins a sword fight where the force isn’t present. I can easily see that. But Vader’s mind is superior to Anakin’s. His experience dwarfs Anakin’s. His knowledge and understanding of the force dominates Anakin’s. These points are undeniable.

    Do you think Mace Windu was stronger when he was a newly Knighted Jedi, or in Episode 3? Yoda? Do you think Sidious was stronger as an apprenticed young man? Was Kenobi more powerful in Episode 1 than he was in Episode 3? Of course not. Now, do you think that much of their growth in power was reliant on on their agility in youth? No sir, it wasn’t.

    But he was the Chosen One! Yes... Chosen to become an all powerful Sith Lord the likes of which the galaxy has never seen. Not chosen to simply betray the Jedi and immediately be handicapped into a lesser, diminished state.

    Vader’s power, and even Anakin’s for that matter, wasn’t measured by their physical agility at any point, but rather their strength in the force. There is no comparison at all.
  • AzorAhai
    1359 posts Member
    Everyone here seems to think that Vader would win, but I think I'll side with Anakin. Here's why:
    This argument again...

    Darth Vader knows everything that Anakin does. Everything. There are many things that Darth Vader knows that Anakin doesn’t. Including combat, and the ways of the force.

    Darth Vader knows everything about Anakin. Everything. Anakin Skywalker knows absolutely nothing about Darth Vader. Including combat experience and and a deeper understanding of the force.

    Anakin grew up and developed to a point, and then ceased to exist. Darth Vader assumed all of that development and growth, and then added two decades of further growth and development.

    There is no argument.

    You assume that Vader has everything that Anakin has, which is most certainly not true. Vader is clearly slower and more clunky than Anakin. Vader had to change his fighting style, because he simply no longer had the speed or reflexes to fight like he did as Anakin.

    Vader is clearly slower and more clunky than every Jedi.
  • DarthJ wrote: »
    hmmm...theoretically, if Anakin had of reached his potential, we would be saying Anakin no question.

    However, based on what we know in the saga....

    Anakin to the point of Episode 3 - is obviously more mobile so I would say in terms of actual lightsaber skills he would be ahead of Vader.

    BUT Vader for me is more attuned with the force, since that was his main focus post-suit. Obviously still a formidable fighter, but his force skills were far better.

    Too hard to call for me.

    I still wonder if there is such thing as time travel in the Star Wars universe.
  • Everyone here seems to think that Vader would win, but I think I'll side with Anakin. Here's why:
    This argument again...

    Darth Vader knows everything that Anakin does. Everything. There are many things that Darth Vader knows that Anakin doesn’t. Including combat, and the ways of the force.

    Darth Vader knows everything about Anakin. Everything. Anakin Skywalker knows absolutely nothing about Darth Vader. Including combat experience and and a deeper understanding of the force.

    Anakin grew up and developed to a point, and then ceased to exist. Darth Vader assumed all of that development and growth, and then added two decades of further growth and development.

    There is no argument.

    You assume that Vader has everything that Anakin has, which is most certainly not true. Vader is clearly slower and more clunky than Anakin. Vader had to change his fighting style, because he simply no longer had the speed or reflexes to fight like he did as Anakin.

    I will concede your points, as far as simple physical ability is concerned. I will take the older, more experienced Vader, fully disciplined in both the light and dark side of the force. Anakin could run faster with better reflexes. Ok. He wins a sword fight where the force isn’t present. I can easily see that. But Vader’s mind is superior to Anakin’s. His experience dwarfs Anakin’s. His knowledge and understanding of the force dominates Anakin’s. These points are undeniable.

    Do you think Mace Windu was stronger when he was a newly Knighted Jedi, or in Episode 3? Yoda? Do you think Sidious was stronger as an apprenticed young man? Was Kenobi more powerful in Episode 1 than he was in Episode 3? Of course not. Now, do you think that much of their growth in power was reliant on on their agility in youth? No sir, it wasn’t.

    But he was the Chosen One! Yes... Chosen to become an all powerful Sith Lord the likes of which the galaxy has never seen. Not chosen to simply betray the Jedi and immediately be handicapped into a lesser, diminished state.

    Vader’s power, and even Anakin’s for that matter, wasn’t measured by their physical agility at any point, but rather their strength in the force. There is no comparison at all.

    Speaking of comparisons, this conversation I've made strangely reminds me of a battle between Joseph Gordon-Levitt and Bruce Willis.

    9dq35vsedbga.jpg
  • AzorAhai wrote: »
    Everyone here seems to think that Vader would win, but I think I'll side with Anakin. Here's why:
    This argument again...

    Darth Vader knows everything that Anakin does. Everything. There are many things that Darth Vader knows that Anakin doesn’t. Including combat, and the ways of the force.

    Darth Vader knows everything about Anakin. Everything. Anakin Skywalker knows absolutely nothing about Darth Vader. Including combat experience and and a deeper understanding of the force.

    Anakin grew up and developed to a point, and then ceased to exist. Darth Vader assumed all of that development and growth, and then added two decades of further growth and development.

    There is no argument.

    You assume that Vader has everything that Anakin has, which is most certainly not true. Vader is clearly slower and more clunky than Anakin. Vader had to change his fighting style, because he simply no longer had the speed or reflexes to fight like he did as Anakin.

    Vader is clearly slower and more clunky than every Jedi.

    Not unless if he is spiraling into space.

    10kvb690dgeb.gif
  • Everyone here seems to think that Vader would win, but I think I'll side with Anakin. Here's why:
    This argument again...

    Darth Vader knows everything that Anakin does. Everything. There are many things that Darth Vader knows that Anakin doesn’t. Including combat, and the ways of the force.

    Darth Vader knows everything about Anakin. Everything. Anakin Skywalker knows absolutely nothing about Darth Vader. Including combat experience and and a deeper understanding of the force.

    Anakin grew up and developed to a point, and then ceased to exist. Darth Vader assumed all of that development and growth, and then added two decades of further growth and development.

    There is no argument.

    You assume that Vader has everything that Anakin has, which is most certainly not true. Vader is clearly slower and more clunky than Anakin. Vader had to change his fighting style, because he simply no longer had the speed or reflexes to fight like he did as Anakin.

    I will concede your points, as far as simple physical ability is concerned. I will take the older, more experienced Vader, fully disciplined in both the light and dark side of the force. Anakin could run faster with better reflexes. Ok. He wins a sword fight where the force isn’t present. I can easily see that. But Vader’s mind is superior to Anakin’s. His experience dwarfs Anakin’s. His knowledge and understanding of the force dominates Anakin’s. These points are undeniable.

    Do you think Mace Windu was stronger when he was a newly Knighted Jedi, or in Episode 3? Yoda? Do you think Sidious was stronger as an apprenticed young man? Was Kenobi more powerful in Episode 1 than he was in Episode 3? Of course not. Now, do you think that much of their growth in power was reliant on on their agility in youth? No sir, it wasn’t.

    But he was the Chosen One! Yes... Chosen to become an all powerful Sith Lord the likes of which the galaxy has never seen. Not chosen to simply betray the Jedi and immediately be handicapped into a lesser, diminished state.

    Vader’s power, and even Anakin’s for that matter, wasn’t measured by their physical agility at any point, but rather their strength in the force. There is no comparison at all.

    Mace Windu, Obi Wan Kenobi, and Sidious's limbs weren't replaced with poor quality prosthetic legs and arms that hindered both movement and connection to the force. I agree that Vader is smarter and more experienced than Anakin. But I will challenge the point that Vader's connection to the force was greater than Anakin's. Take this quote from the ROTS novel describing how Vader lost power in the force after his injury for example:

    “And you rage and scream and reach through the Force to crush the shadow who has destroyed you, but you are so far less now than what you were, you are more than half machine, you are like a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf, you can remember where the power was but the power you can touch is only a memory, and so with all your world-destroying fury it is only droids around you that implode, and equipment, and the table on which you were strapped shatters, and in the end, you cannot touch the shadow. In the end you don't even want to. In the end, you do not even want to."

    "The power you can touch is only a memory"

    "You are so far less now than what you were"

    "In the end, you cannot touch the shadow"

    I think these quotes clearly say that Vader is weaker than Anakin.
  • So Vader, like everyone else, has moments of self doubt. Delving into self pity sure didn’t seem to stop him from dominating a galaxy. Guess he got over it.

    And it was more like hands and feet, not legs and arms. Maybe you’re right, since it’s well known that force users true power comes from below the elbows and knees. Surely not the mind, heart, and spirit. Silly me. Shriv must have been really interested in those metacarpals while following his career closely!

    When we’ve debated this before, you’ve pulled quotes stating that Vader’s suit was antiquated, akin to the technology used with Grievous. Grievous, having only lungs, and a heart, and a head, sure seemed to kill a lot of Jedi with that terribly limiting prosthetic technology. And without even the force mind you. I guess you’re just smarter than me because I’m scratching my head trying to figure out how Grievous was enhanced, yet Vader was diminished, using the same technology. Let’s not forget that we’re talking about technology in a galactic community with a multitude of intelligent species with interstellar flight. I gues there prosthetics just weren’t that advanced?

    They have Hyperdrives, but poor medical tech?

    Um... no.

    He may have been “far less” in his mind’s eye in moments of inner turmoil, but what he accomplished speaks otherwise. Anakin lost to Obi-Wan. Vader defeated a galaxy.

    *sighs*

  • So Vader, like everyone else, has moments of self doubt. Delving into self pity sure didn’t seem to stop him from dominating a galaxy. Guess he got over it.

    And it was more like hands and feet, not legs and arms. Maybe you’re right, since it’s well known that force users true power comes from below the elbows and knees. Surely not the mind, heart, and spirit. Silly me. Shriv must have been really interested in those metacarpals while following his career closely!

    When we’ve debated this before, you’ve pulled quotes stating that Vader’s suit was antiquated, akin to the technology used with Grievous. Grievous, having only lungs, and a heart, and a head, sure seemed to kill a lot of Jedi with that terribly limiting prosthetic technology. And without even the force mind you. I guess you’re just smarter than me because I’m scratching my head trying to figure out how Grievous was enhanced, yet Vader was diminished, using the same technology. Let’s not forget that we’re talking about technology in a galactic community with a multitude of intelligent species with interstellar flight. I gues there prosthetics just weren’t that advanced?

    They have Hyperdrives, but poor medical tech?

    Um... no.

    He may have been “far less” in his mind’s eye in moments of inner turmoil, but what he accomplished speaks otherwise. Anakin lost to Obi-Wan. Vader defeated a galaxy.

    *sighs*

    This is not a quote showing Vader doubting himself. This is a quote showing Vader physically not being able to do something that he would have been able to do as Anakin. Actually, part of his force power does come from below his elbows and knees, because midiclorians are present in every part of the body. Therefore, if you lose four limbs like Anakin did, you lose a great deal of midiclorians. In Grievous' case, it is different because Grievous could never use the force. So when he lost his limbs, he didn't lose any abilities that he had before. Also, Palpatine purposefully used less advanced tech when building Vader's suit to punish Vader for wasting his potential.
  • So Vader, like everyone else, has moments of self doubt. Delving into self pity sure didn’t seem to stop him from dominating a galaxy. Guess he got over it.

    And it was more like hands and feet, not legs and arms. Maybe you’re right, since it’s well known that force users true power comes from below the elbows and knees. Surely not the mind, heart, and spirit. Silly me. Shriv must have been really interested in those metacarpals while following his career closely!

    When we’ve debated this before, you’ve pulled quotes stating that Vader’s suit was antiquated, akin to the technology used with Grievous. Grievous, having only lungs, and a heart, and a head, sure seemed to kill a lot of Jedi with that terribly limiting prosthetic technology. And without even the force mind you. I guess you’re just smarter than me because I’m scratching my head trying to figure out how Grievous was enhanced, yet Vader was diminished, using the same technology. Let’s not forget that we’re talking about technology in a galactic community with a multitude of intelligent species with interstellar flight. I gues there prosthetics just weren’t that advanced?

    They have Hyperdrives, but poor medical tech?

    Um... no.

    He may have been “far less” in his mind’s eye in moments of inner turmoil, but what he accomplished speaks otherwise. Anakin lost to Obi-Wan. Vader defeated a galaxy.

    *sighs*

    A fairly decent logical statement, but here's another paradox: if Darth Vader killed Anakin Skywalker, then he would cease to exist. :o (Besides in Star Wars Battlefront 2 where everyone always dies and you play them again.). :p
  • So Vader, like everyone else, has moments of self doubt. Delving into self pity sure didn’t seem to stop him from dominating a galaxy. Guess he got over it.

    And it was more like hands and feet, not legs and arms. Maybe you’re right, since it’s well known that force users true power comes from below the elbows and knees. Surely not the mind, heart, and spirit. Silly me. Shriv must have been really interested in those metacarpals while following his career closely!

    When we’ve debated this before, you’ve pulled quotes stating that Vader’s suit was antiquated, akin to the technology used with Grievous. Grievous, having only lungs, and a heart, and a head, sure seemed to kill a lot of Jedi with that terribly limiting prosthetic technology. And without even the force mind you. I guess you’re just smarter than me because I’m scratching my head trying to figure out how Grievous was enhanced, yet Vader was diminished, using the same technology. Let’s not forget that we’re talking about technology in a galactic community with a multitude of intelligent species with interstellar flight. I gues there prosthetics just weren’t that advanced?

    They have Hyperdrives, but poor medical tech?

    Um... no.

    He may have been “far less” in his mind’s eye in moments of inner turmoil, but what he accomplished speaks otherwise. Anakin lost to Obi-Wan. Vader defeated a galaxy.

    *sighs*

    This is not a quote showing Vader doubting himself. This is a quote showing Vader physically not being able to do something that he would have been able to do as Anakin. Actually, part of his force power does come from below his elbows and knees, because midiclorians are present in every part of the body. Therefore, if you lose four limbs like Anakin did, you lose a great deal of midiclorians. In Grievous' case, it is different because Grievous could never use the force. So when he lost his limbs, he didn't lose any abilities that he had before. Also, Palpatine purposefully used less advanced tech when building Vader's suit to punish Vader for wasting his potential.

    Ok. But none of these arguments accounts for the underlying reality of... growth.

    With every point given hinging entirely on the loss of hands and feet, and the disfunctional armor, then it stands to reason that one’s strength in the force, and therefore overall power, never changes. Then by extension it can be said that since he had all his limbs, Anakin from Episode 2 was just as powerful as from episode 3. But why stop there... The same applies to Anakin from Episode 1. Would you agree that until the fight a Mustafar, Anakin having all his faculties, was always at the same power level, and more powerful than Vader? I’m fairly certain that you would not.

    Why? Because of growth.

    I will grant you that immediately upon receiving the armor, Vader was likely in a diminished state as compared to Anakin before his defeat by Kenobi. What I, and others, keep trying to point out to you, and others, is simply this...

    Just as Anakin grew in strength up to and through Episode 3, even having been diminished after losing to Kenobi, with 19 years of growth in the force, Vader in Episode 4 had grown stronger than Anakin was in Episode 3. To argue against this growth in strength due to lost extremities and punishment armor then you must also logically conclude that Anakin in the pod race was also stronger than Darth Vader.

    Was Vader as strong as he would have been without the injuries? No.
    Was Vader still stronger than he had been all those years ago when he lost to Kenobi, despite the injuries? Of course.
  • AzorAhai
    1359 posts Member
    I wonder how many midichlorians you lose from a paper cut.

    "Force push just not as strong as it once was since I had to do that paperwork!"

    Imagine if Yoda had a large tail just how much more powerful he'd be in the Force!

    Odd that a small boy had a higher midichlorian count than our little green friend, but a grown man missing half of each arm and leg would somehow have less.
  • MyLittleGreenFriend
    3521 posts Member
    edited March 5
    So Vader, like everyone else, has moments of self doubt. Delving into self pity sure didn’t seem to stop him from dominating a galaxy. Guess he got over it.

    And it was more like hands and feet, not legs and arms. Maybe you’re right, since it’s well known that force users true power comes from below the elbows and knees. Surely not the mind, heart, and spirit. Silly me. Shriv must have been really interested in those metacarpals while following his career closely!

    When we’ve debated this before, you’ve pulled quotes stating that Vader’s suit was antiquated, akin to the technology used with Grievous. Grievous, having only lungs, and a heart, and a head, sure seemed to kill a lot of Jedi with that terribly limiting prosthetic technology. And without even the force mind you. I guess you’re just smarter than me because I’m scratching my head trying to figure out how Grievous was enhanced, yet Vader was diminished, using the same technology. Let’s not forget that we’re talking about technology in a galactic community with a multitude of intelligent species with interstellar flight. I gues there prosthetics just weren’t that advanced?

    They have Hyperdrives, but poor medical tech?

    Um... no.

    He may have been “far less” in his mind’s eye in moments of inner turmoil, but what he accomplished speaks otherwise. Anakin lost to Obi-Wan. Vader defeated a galaxy.

    *sighs*

    This is not a quote showing Vader doubting himself. This is a quote showing Vader physically not being able to do something that he would have been able to do as Anakin. Actually, part of his force power does come from below his elbows and knees, because midiclorians are present in every part of the body. Therefore, if you lose four limbs like Anakin did, you lose a great deal of midiclorians. In Grievous' case, it is different because Grievous could never use the force. So when he lost his limbs, he didn't lose any abilities that he had before. Also, Palpatine purposefully used less advanced tech when building Vader's suit to punish Vader for wasting his potential.


    With every point given hinging entirely on the loss of hands and feet, and the disfunctional armor, then it stands to reason that one’s strength in the force, and therefore overall power, never changes. Then by extension it can be said that since he had all his limbs, Anakin from Episode 2 was just as powerful as from episode 3. But why stop there... The same applies to Anakin from Episode 1. Would you agree that until the fight a Mustafar, Anakin having all his faculties, was always at the same power level, and more powerful than Vader? I’m fairly certain that you would not.

    Of course force users grow more powerful over time. Someone's IQ when they were 12 might be the same as when they are 40, but obviously the 40 year old is smarter. Midiclorians are the same way. Anakin from Episode 3 is obviously more powerful that Anakin from episode 1. I agree with you here.






    So Vader, like everyone else, has moments of self doubt. Delving into self pity sure didn’t seem to stop him from dominating a galaxy. Guess he got over it.

    And it was more like hands and feet, not legs and arms. Maybe you’re right, since it’s well known that force users true power comes from below the elbows and knees. Surely not the mind, heart, and spirit. Silly me. Shriv must have been really interested in those metacarpals while following his career closely!

    When we’ve debated this before, you’ve pulled quotes stating that Vader’s suit was antiquated, akin to the technology used with Grievous. Grievous, having only lungs, and a heart, and a head, sure seemed to kill a lot of Jedi with that terribly limiting prosthetic technology. And without even the force mind you. I guess you’re just smarter than me because I’m scratching my head trying to figure out how Grievous was enhanced, yet Vader was diminished, using the same technology. Let’s not forget that we’re talking about technology in a galactic community with a multitude of intelligent species with interstellar flight. I gues there prosthetics just weren’t that advanced?

    They have Hyperdrives, but poor medical tech?

    Um... no.

    He may have been “far less” in his mind’s eye in moments of inner turmoil, but what he accomplished speaks otherwise. Anakin lost to Obi-Wan. Vader defeated a galaxy.

    *sighs*

    This is not a quote showing Vader doubting himself. This is a quote showing Vader physically not being able to do something that he would have been able to do as Anakin. Actually, part of his force power does come from below his elbows and knees, because midiclorians are present in every part of the body. Therefore, if you lose four limbs like Anakin did, you lose a great deal of midiclorians. In Grievous' case, it is different because Grievous could never use the force. So when he lost his limbs, he didn't lose any abilities that he had before. Also, Palpatine purposefully used less advanced tech when building Vader's suit to punish Vader for wasting his potential.


    Just as Anakin grew in strength up to and through Episode 3, even having been diminished after losing to Kenobi, with 19 years of growth in the force, Vader in Episode 4 had grown stronger than Anakin was in Episode 3. To argue against this growth in strength due to lost extremities and punishment armor then you must also logically conclude that Anakin in the pod race was also stronger than Darth Vader.

    I don't really see the logic behind this. We have no way of knowing how much Vader grew in the force from ROTS to ANH. Here's a rudimentary example:

    Let's let Anakin's power level before Mustafar be 100x. After Mustafar, for the purposes of this example, let's just say Anakin lost 20x of that power. This leaves the Vader that we see in ROTS at 80x, or 80% of his original power. Now let's say that Vader gains 1x every year until ANH. This means that by the time we see him in ANH, he is still weaker then when we see him in ROTS.

    Of course, these are fabricated numbers. And yet, this solution has the same amount of proof (zero) as your assertion that if ROTS Anakin is stronger the ANH Vader, TPM Anakin must also be stronger than Vader.
  • So Vader, like everyone else, has moments of self doubt. Delving into self pity sure didn’t seem to stop him from dominating a galaxy. Guess he got over it.

    And it was more like hands and feet, not legs and arms. Maybe you’re right, since it’s well known that force users true power comes from below the elbows and knees. Surely not the mind, heart, and spirit. Silly me. Shriv must have been really interested in those metacarpals while following his career closely!

    When we’ve debated this before, you’ve pulled quotes stating that Vader’s suit was antiquated, akin to the technology used with Grievous. Grievous, having only lungs, and a heart, and a head, sure seemed to kill a lot of Jedi with that terribly limiting prosthetic technology. And without even the force mind you. I guess you’re just smarter than me because I’m scratching my head trying to figure out how Grievous was enhanced, yet Vader was diminished, using the same technology. Let’s not forget that we’re talking about technology in a galactic community with a multitude of intelligent species with interstellar flight. I gues there prosthetics just weren’t that advanced?

    They have Hyperdrives, but poor medical tech?

    Um... no.

    He may have been “far less” in his mind’s eye in moments of inner turmoil, but what he accomplished speaks otherwise. Anakin lost to Obi-Wan. Vader defeated a galaxy.

    *sighs*

    This is not a quote showing Vader doubting himself. This is a quote showing Vader physically not being able to do something that he would have been able to do as Anakin. Actually, part of his force power does come from below his elbows and knees, because midiclorians are present in every part of the body. Therefore, if you lose four limbs like Anakin did, you lose a great deal of midiclorians. In Grievous' case, it is different because Grievous could never use the force. So when he lost his limbs, he didn't lose any abilities that he had before. Also, Palpatine purposefully used less advanced tech when building Vader's suit to punish Vader for wasting his potential.


    With every point given hinging entirely on the loss of hands and feet, and the disfunctional armor, then it stands to reason that one’s strength in the force, and therefore overall power, never changes. Then by extension it can be said that since he had all his limbs, Anakin from Episode 2 was just as powerful as from episode 3. But why stop there... The same applies to Anakin from Episode 1. Would you agree that until the fight a Mustafar, Anakin having all his faculties, was always at the same power level, and more powerful than Vader? I’m fairly certain that you would not.

    Of course force users grow more powerful over time. Someone's IQ when they were 12 might be the same as when they are 40, but obviously the 40 year old is smarter. Midiclorians are the same way. Anakin from Episode 3 is obviously more powerful that Anakin from episode 1. I agree with you here.






    So Vader, like everyone else, has moments of self doubt. Delving into self pity sure didn’t seem to stop him from dominating a galaxy. Guess he got over it.

    And it was more like hands and feet, not legs and arms. Maybe you’re right, since it’s well known that force users true power comes from below the elbows and knees. Surely not the mind, heart, and spirit. Silly me. Shriv must have been really interested in those metacarpals while following his career closely!

    When we’ve debated this before, you’ve pulled quotes stating that Vader’s suit was antiquated, akin to the technology used with Grievous. Grievous, having only lungs, and a heart, and a head, sure seemed to kill a lot of Jedi with that terribly limiting prosthetic technology. And without even the force mind you. I guess you’re just smarter than me because I’m scratching my head trying to figure out how Grievous was enhanced, yet Vader was diminished, using the same technology. Let’s not forget that we’re talking about technology in a galactic community with a multitude of intelligent species with interstellar flight. I gues there prosthetics just weren’t that advanced?

    They have Hyperdrives, but poor medical tech?

    Um... no.

    He may have been “far less” in his mind’s eye in moments of inner turmoil, but what he accomplished speaks otherwise. Anakin lost to Obi-Wan. Vader defeated a galaxy.

    *sighs*

    This is not a quote showing Vader doubting himself. This is a quote showing Vader physically not being able to do something that he would have been able to do as Anakin. Actually, part of his force power does come from below his elbows and knees, because midiclorians are present in every part of the body. Therefore, if you lose four limbs like Anakin did, you lose a great deal of midiclorians. In Grievous' case, it is different because Grievous could never use the force. So when he lost his limbs, he didn't lose any abilities that he had before. Also, Palpatine purposefully used less advanced tech when building Vader's suit to punish Vader for wasting his potential.


    Just as Anakin grew in strength up to and through Episode 3, even having been diminished after losing to Kenobi, with 19 years of growth in the force, Vader in Episode 4 had grown stronger than Anakin was in Episode 3. To argue against this growth in strength due to lost extremities and punishment armor then you must also logically conclude that Anakin in the pod race was also stronger than Darth Vader.

    I don't really see the logic behind this. We have no way of knowing how much Vader grew in the force from ROTS to ANH. Here's a rudimentary example:

    Let's let Anakin's power level before Mustafar be 100x. After Mustafar, for the purposes of this example, let's just say Anakin lost 20x of that power. This leaves the Vader that we see in ROTS at 80x, or 80% of his original power. Now let's say that Vader gains 1x every year until ANH. This means that by the time we see him in ANH, he is still weaker then when we see him in ROTS.

    Of course, these are fabricated numbers. And yet, this solution has the same amount of proof (zero) as your assertion that if ROTS Anakin is stronger the ANH Vader, TPM Anakin must also be stronger than Vader.

    I haven’t asserted anything. All I’ve done is follow your logic that since he lost his hands and feet, he’d never be more powerful than he had been. Which is, always has been, and always will be false reasoning. Darth Vader, Sith Lord, grew in strength in the dark side of the force and his overall power level, despite his injuries and punishment armor(silly that), surmounts what he had been as Anakin, a simple, admittedly powerful, but poor Jedi Knight. A boy, trying to become a man. Well, he did become a man. And he was at his highest power thereafter.
  • bfloo
    15816 posts Member
    If RotS Ani went at ESB Vader 10 times, I think Vader would win 7/10.

    Ani was more reckless, which I think Vader would exploit.
    The Knights of Gareth are Eternal

    Pirate of the Knights of Gareth

    h846398gb27k.png


  • AzorAhai
    1359 posts Member
    bfloo wrote: »
    If RotS Ani went at ESB Vader 10 times, I think Vader would win 7/10.

    Ani was more reckless, which I think Vader would exploit.

    Prequel Anakin vs Prequel Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan would win 7/10.

    ESB Vader would win 10/10 against either one of those guys.
  • bfloo
    15816 posts Member
    AzorAhai wrote: »
    bfloo wrote: »
    If RotS Ani went at ESB Vader 10 times, I think Vader would win 7/10.

    Ani was more reckless, which I think Vader would exploit.

    Prequel Anakin vs Prequel Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan would win 7/10.

    ESB Vader would win 10/10 against either one of those guys.

    I don't know about Obi, the ANH duel was pretty even.

    Soresu was a pretty good counter to heavy styles.
    The Knights of Gareth are Eternal

    Pirate of the Knights of Gareth

    h846398gb27k.png


  • So Vader, like everyone else, has moments of self doubt. Delving into self pity sure didn’t seem to stop him from dominating a galaxy. Guess he got over it.

    And it was more like hands and feet, not legs and arms. Maybe you’re right, since it’s well known that force users true power comes from below the elbows and knees. Surely not the mind, heart, and spirit. Silly me. Shriv must have been really interested in those metacarpals while following his career closely!

    When we’ve debated this before, you’ve pulled quotes stating that Vader’s suit was antiquated, akin to the technology used with Grievous. Grievous, having only lungs, and a heart, and a head, sure seemed to kill a lot of Jedi with that terribly limiting prosthetic technology. And without even the force mind you. I guess you’re just smarter than me because I’m scratching my head trying to figure out how Grievous was enhanced, yet Vader was diminished, using the same technology. Let’s not forget that we’re talking about technology in a galactic community with a multitude of intelligent species with interstellar flight. I gues there prosthetics just weren’t that advanced?

    They have Hyperdrives, but poor medical tech?

    Um... no.

    He may have been “far less” in his mind’s eye in moments of inner turmoil, but what he accomplished speaks otherwise. Anakin lost to Obi-Wan. Vader defeated a galaxy.

    *sighs*

    This is not a quote showing Vader doubting himself. This is a quote showing Vader physically not being able to do something that he would have been able to do as Anakin. Actually, part of his force power does come from below his elbows and knees, because midiclorians are present in every part of the body. Therefore, if you lose four limbs like Anakin did, you lose a great deal of midiclorians. In Grievous' case, it is different because Grievous could never use the force. So when he lost his limbs, he didn't lose any abilities that he had before. Also, Palpatine purposefully used less advanced tech when building Vader's suit to punish Vader for wasting his potential.


    With every point given hinging entirely on the loss of hands and feet, and the disfunctional armor, then it stands to reason that one’s strength in the force, and therefore overall power, never changes. Then by extension it can be said that since he had all his limbs, Anakin from Episode 2 was just as powerful as from episode 3. But why stop there... The same applies to Anakin from Episode 1. Would you agree that until the fight a Mustafar, Anakin having all his faculties, was always at the same power level, and more powerful than Vader? I’m fairly certain that you would not.

    Of course force users grow more powerful over time. Someone's IQ when they were 12 might be the same as when they are 40, but obviously the 40 year old is smarter. Midiclorians are the same way. Anakin from Episode 3 is obviously more powerful that Anakin from episode 1. I agree with you here.






    So Vader, like everyone else, has moments of self doubt. Delving into self pity sure didn’t seem to stop him from dominating a galaxy. Guess he got over it.

    And it was more like hands and feet, not legs and arms. Maybe you’re right, since it’s well known that force users true power comes from below the elbows and knees. Surely not the mind, heart, and spirit. Silly me. Shriv must have been really interested in those metacarpals while following his career closely!

    When we’ve debated this before, you’ve pulled quotes stating that Vader’s suit was antiquated, akin to the technology used with Grievous. Grievous, having only lungs, and a heart, and a head, sure seemed to kill a lot of Jedi with that terribly limiting prosthetic technology. And without even the force mind you. I guess you’re just smarter than me because I’m scratching my head trying to figure out how Grievous was enhanced, yet Vader was diminished, using the same technology. Let’s not forget that we’re talking about technology in a galactic community with a multitude of intelligent species with interstellar flight. I gues there prosthetics just weren’t that advanced?

    They have Hyperdrives, but poor medical tech?

    Um... no.

    He may have been “far less” in his mind’s eye in moments of inner turmoil, but what he accomplished speaks otherwise. Anakin lost to Obi-Wan. Vader defeated a galaxy.

    *sighs*

    This is not a quote showing Vader doubting himself. This is a quote showing Vader physically not being able to do something that he would have been able to do as Anakin. Actually, part of his force power does come from below his elbows and knees, because midiclorians are present in every part of the body. Therefore, if you lose four limbs like Anakin did, you lose a great deal of midiclorians. In Grievous' case, it is different because Grievous could never use the force. So when he lost his limbs, he didn't lose any abilities that he had before. Also, Palpatine purposefully used less advanced tech when building Vader's suit to punish Vader for wasting his potential.


    Just as Anakin grew in strength up to and through Episode 3, even having been diminished after losing to Kenobi, with 19 years of growth in the force, Vader in Episode 4 had grown stronger than Anakin was in Episode 3. To argue against this growth in strength due to lost extremities and punishment armor then you must also logically conclude that Anakin in the pod race was also stronger than Darth Vader.

    I don't really see the logic behind this. We have no way of knowing how much Vader grew in the force from ROTS to ANH. Here's a rudimentary example:

    Let's let Anakin's power level before Mustafar be 100x. After Mustafar, for the purposes of this example, let's just say Anakin lost 20x of that power. This leaves the Vader that we see in ROTS at 80x, or 80% of his original power. Now let's say that Vader gains 1x every year until ANH. This means that by the time we see him in ANH, he is still weaker then when we see him in ROTS.

    Of course, these are fabricated numbers. And yet, this solution has the same amount of proof (zero) as your assertion that if ROTS Anakin is stronger the ANH Vader, TPM Anakin must also be stronger than Vader.

    I haven’t asserted anything. All I’ve done is follow your logic that since he lost his hands and feet, he’d never be more powerful than he had been. Which is, always has been, and always will be false reasoning. Darth Vader, Sith Lord, grew in strength in the dark side of the force and his overall power level, despite his injuries and punishment armor(silly that), surmounts what he had been as Anakin, a simple, admittedly powerful, but poor Jedi Knight. A boy, trying to become a man. Well, he did become a man. And he was at his highest power thereafter.

    You said that "To argue against this growth in strength due to lost extremities and punishment armor then you must also logically conclude that Anakin in the pod race was also stronger than Darth Vader. "

    Which is quite simply untrue.
  • bfloo
    15816 posts Member
    So Vader, like everyone else, has moments of self doubt. Delving into self pity sure didn’t seem to stop him from dominating a galaxy. Guess he got over it.

    And it was more like hands and feet, not legs and arms. Maybe you’re right, since it’s well known that force users true power comes from below the elbows and knees. Surely not the mind, heart, and spirit. Silly me. Shriv must have been really interested in those metacarpals while following his career closely!

    When we’ve debated this before, you’ve pulled quotes stating that Vader’s suit was antiquated, akin to the technology used with Grievous. Grievous, having only lungs, and a heart, and a head, sure seemed to kill a lot of Jedi with that terribly limiting prosthetic technology. And without even the force mind you. I guess you’re just smarter than me because I’m scratching my head trying to figure out how Grievous was enhanced, yet Vader was diminished, using the same technology. Let’s not forget that we’re talking about technology in a galactic community with a multitude of intelligent species with interstellar flight. I gues there prosthetics just weren’t that advanced?

    They have Hyperdrives, but poor medical tech?

    Um... no.

    He may have been “far less” in his mind’s eye in moments of inner turmoil, but what he accomplished speaks otherwise. Anakin lost to Obi-Wan. Vader defeated a galaxy.

    *sighs*

    This is not a quote showing Vader doubting himself. This is a quote showing Vader physically not being able to do something that he would have been able to do as Anakin. Actually, part of his force power does come from below his elbows and knees, because midiclorians are present in every part of the body. Therefore, if you lose four limbs like Anakin did, you lose a great deal of midiclorians. In Grievous' case, it is different because Grievous could never use the force. So when he lost his limbs, he didn't lose any abilities that he had before. Also, Palpatine purposefully used less advanced tech when building Vader's suit to punish Vader for wasting his potential.


    With every point given hinging entirely on the loss of hands and feet, and the disfunctional armor, then it stands to reason that one’s strength in the force, and therefore overall power, never changes. Then by extension it can be said that since he had all his limbs, Anakin from Episode 2 was just as powerful as from episode 3. But why stop there... The same applies to Anakin from Episode 1. Would you agree that until the fight a Mustafar, Anakin having all his faculties, was always at the same power level, and more powerful than Vader? I’m fairly certain that you would not.

    Of course force users grow more powerful over time. Someone's IQ when they were 12 might be the same as when they are 40, but obviously the 40 year old is smarter. Midiclorians are the same way. Anakin from Episode 3 is obviously more powerful that Anakin from episode 1. I agree with you here.






    So Vader, like everyone else, has moments of self doubt. Delving into self pity sure didn’t seem to stop him from dominating a galaxy. Guess he got over it.

    And it was more like hands and feet, not legs and arms. Maybe you’re right, since it’s well known that force users true power comes from below the elbows and knees. Surely not the mind, heart, and spirit. Silly me. Shriv must have been really interested in those metacarpals while following his career closely!

    When we’ve debated this before, you’ve pulled quotes stating that Vader’s suit was antiquated, akin to the technology used with Grievous. Grievous, having only lungs, and a heart, and a head, sure seemed to kill a lot of Jedi with that terribly limiting prosthetic technology. And without even the force mind you. I guess you’re just smarter than me because I’m scratching my head trying to figure out how Grievous was enhanced, yet Vader was diminished, using the same technology. Let’s not forget that we’re talking about technology in a galactic community with a multitude of intelligent species with interstellar flight. I gues there prosthetics just weren’t that advanced?

    They have Hyperdrives, but poor medical tech?

    Um... no.

    He may have been “far less” in his mind’s eye in moments of inner turmoil, but what he accomplished speaks otherwise. Anakin lost to Obi-Wan. Vader defeated a galaxy.

    *sighs*

    This is not a quote showing Vader doubting himself. This is a quote showing Vader physically not being able to do something that he would have been able to do as Anakin. Actually, part of his force power does come from below his elbows and knees, because midiclorians are present in every part of the body. Therefore, if you lose four limbs like Anakin did, you lose a great deal of midiclorians. In Grievous' case, it is different because Grievous could never use the force. So when he lost his limbs, he didn't lose any abilities that he had before. Also, Palpatine purposefully used less advanced tech when building Vader's suit to punish Vader for wasting his potential.


    Just as Anakin grew in strength up to and through Episode 3, even having been diminished after losing to Kenobi, with 19 years of growth in the force, Vader in Episode 4 had grown stronger than Anakin was in Episode 3. To argue against this growth in strength due to lost extremities and punishment armor then you must also logically conclude that Anakin in the pod race was also stronger than Darth Vader.

    I don't really see the logic behind this. We have no way of knowing how much Vader grew in the force from ROTS to ANH. Here's a rudimentary example:

    Let's let Anakin's power level before Mustafar be 100x. After Mustafar, for the purposes of this example, let's just say Anakin lost 20x of that power. This leaves the Vader that we see in ROTS at 80x, or 80% of his original power. Now let's say that Vader gains 1x every year until ANH. This means that by the time we see him in ANH, he is still weaker then when we see him in ROTS.

    Of course, these are fabricated numbers. And yet, this solution has the same amount of proof (zero) as your assertion that if ROTS Anakin is stronger the ANH Vader, TPM Anakin must also be stronger than Vader.

    I haven’t asserted anything. All I’ve done is follow your logic that since he lost his hands and feet, he’d never be more powerful than he had been. Which is, always has been, and always will be false reasoning. Darth Vader, Sith Lord, grew in strength in the dark side of the force and his overall power level, despite his injuries and punishment armor(silly that), surmounts what he had been as Anakin, a simple, admittedly powerful, but poor Jedi Knight. A boy, trying to become a man. Well, he did become a man. And he was at his highest power thereafter.

    You said that "To argue against this growth in strength due to lost extremities and punishment armor then you must also logically conclude that Anakin in the pod race was also stronger than Darth Vader. "

    Which is quite simply untrue.

    That is actual ability vs potential.

    Potential wise, before the duel with Obi Wan, no one was near Ani, and he was double Luke.

    Palps did design his suit to hold Vader back.
    The Knights of Gareth are Eternal

    Pirate of the Knights of Gareth

    h846398gb27k.png


  • So Vader, like everyone else, has moments of self doubt. Delving into self pity sure didn’t seem to stop him from dominating a galaxy. Guess he got over it.

    And it was more like hands and feet, not legs and arms. Maybe you’re right, since it’s well known that force users true power comes from below the elbows and knees. Surely not the mind, heart, and spirit. Silly me. Shriv must have been really interested in those metacarpals while following his career closely!

    When we’ve debated this before, you’ve pulled quotes stating that Vader’s suit was antiquated, akin to the technology used with Grievous. Grievous, having only lungs, and a heart, and a head, sure seemed to kill a lot of Jedi with that terribly limiting prosthetic technology. And without even the force mind you. I guess you’re just smarter than me because I’m scratching my head trying to figure out how Grievous was enhanced, yet Vader was diminished, using the same technology. Let’s not forget that we’re talking about technology in a galactic community with a multitude of intelligent species with interstellar flight. I gues there prosthetics just weren’t that advanced?

    They have Hyperdrives, but poor medical tech?

    Um... no.

    He may have been “far less” in his mind’s eye in moments of inner turmoil, but what he accomplished speaks otherwise. Anakin lost to Obi-Wan. Vader defeated a galaxy.

    *sighs*

    This is not a quote showing Vader doubting himself. This is a quote showing Vader physically not being able to do something that he would have been able to do as Anakin. Actually, part of his force power does come from below his elbows and knees, because midiclorians are present in every part of the body. Therefore, if you lose four limbs like Anakin did, you lose a great deal of midiclorians. In Grievous' case, it is different because Grievous could never use the force. So when he lost his limbs, he didn't lose any abilities that he had before. Also, Palpatine purposefully used less advanced tech when building Vader's suit to punish Vader for wasting his potential.


    With every point given hinging entirely on the loss of hands and feet, and the disfunctional armor, then it stands to reason that one’s strength in the force, and therefore overall power, never changes. Then by extension it can be said that since he had all his limbs, Anakin from Episode 2 was just as powerful as from episode 3. But why stop there... The same applies to Anakin from Episode 1. Would you agree that until the fight a Mustafar, Anakin having all his faculties, was always at the same power level, and more powerful than Vader? I’m fairly certain that you would not.

    Of course force users grow more powerful over time. Someone's IQ when they were 12 might be the same as when they are 40, but obviously the 40 year old is smarter. Midiclorians are the same way. Anakin from Episode 3 is obviously more powerful that Anakin from episode 1. I agree with you here.






    So Vader, like everyone else, has moments of self doubt. Delving into self pity sure didn’t seem to stop him from dominating a galaxy. Guess he got over it.

    And it was more like hands and feet, not legs and arms. Maybe you’re right, since it’s well known that force users true power comes from below the elbows and knees. Surely not the mind, heart, and spirit. Silly me. Shriv must have been really interested in those metacarpals while following his career closely!

    When we’ve debated this before, you’ve pulled quotes stating that Vader’s suit was antiquated, akin to the technology used with Grievous. Grievous, having only lungs, and a heart, and a head, sure seemed to kill a lot of Jedi with that terribly limiting prosthetic technology. And without even the force mind you. I guess you’re just smarter than me because I’m scratching my head trying to figure out how Grievous was enhanced, yet Vader was diminished, using the same technology. Let’s not forget that we’re talking about technology in a galactic community with a multitude of intelligent species with interstellar flight. I gues there prosthetics just weren’t that advanced?

    They have Hyperdrives, but poor medical tech?

    Um... no.

    He may have been “far less” in his mind’s eye in moments of inner turmoil, but what he accomplished speaks otherwise. Anakin lost to Obi-Wan. Vader defeated a galaxy.

    *sighs*

    This is not a quote showing Vader doubting himself. This is a quote showing Vader physically not being able to do something that he would have been able to do as Anakin. Actually, part of his force power does come from below his elbows and knees, because midiclorians are present in every part of the body. Therefore, if you lose four limbs like Anakin did, you lose a great deal of midiclorians. In Grievous' case, it is different because Grievous could never use the force. So when he lost his limbs, he didn't lose any abilities that he had before. Also, Palpatine purposefully used less advanced tech when building Vader's suit to punish Vader for wasting his potential.


    Just as Anakin grew in strength up to and through Episode 3, even having been diminished after losing to Kenobi, with 19 years of growth in the force, Vader in Episode 4 had grown stronger than Anakin was in Episode 3. To argue against this growth in strength due to lost extremities and punishment armor then you must also logically conclude that Anakin in the pod race was also stronger than Darth Vader.

    I don't really see the logic behind this. We have no way of knowing how much Vader grew in the force from ROTS to ANH. Here's a rudimentary example:

    Let's let Anakin's power level before Mustafar be 100x. After Mustafar, for the purposes of this example, let's just say Anakin lost 20x of that power. This leaves the Vader that we see in ROTS at 80x, or 80% of his original power. Now let's say that Vader gains 1x every year until ANH. This means that by the time we see him in ANH, he is still weaker then when we see him in ROTS.

    Of course, these are fabricated numbers. And yet, this solution has the same amount of proof (zero) as your assertion that if ROTS Anakin is stronger the ANH Vader, TPM Anakin must also be stronger than Vader.

    I haven’t asserted anything. All I’ve done is follow your logic that since he lost his hands and feet, he’d never be more powerful than he had been. Which is, always has been, and always will be false reasoning. Darth Vader, Sith Lord, grew in strength in the dark side of the force and his overall power level, despite his injuries and punishment armor(silly that), surmounts what he had been as Anakin, a simple, admittedly powerful, but poor Jedi Knight. A boy, trying to become a man. Well, he did become a man. And he was at his highest power thereafter.

    You said that "To argue against this growth in strength due to lost extremities and punishment armor then you must also logically conclude that Anakin in the pod race was also stronger than Darth Vader. "

    Which is quite simply untrue.

    Correct. Just as it is untrue for Anakin from Episode 3.
  • So Vader, like everyone else, has moments of self doubt. Delving into self pity sure didn’t seem to stop him from dominating a galaxy. Guess he got over it.

    And it was more like hands and feet, not legs and arms. Maybe you’re right, since it’s well known that force users true power comes from below the elbows and knees. Surely not the mind, heart, and spirit. Silly me. Shriv must have been really interested in those metacarpals while following his career closely!

    When we’ve debated this before, you’ve pulled quotes stating that Vader’s suit was antiquated, akin to the technology used with Grievous. Grievous, having only lungs, and a heart, and a head, sure seemed to kill a lot of Jedi with that terribly limiting prosthetic technology. And without even the force mind you. I guess you’re just smarter than me because I’m scratching my head trying to figure out how Grievous was enhanced, yet Vader was diminished, using the same technology. Let’s not forget that we’re talking about technology in a galactic community with a multitude of intelligent species with interstellar flight. I gues there prosthetics just weren’t that advanced?

    They have Hyperdrives, but poor medical tech?

    Um... no.

    He may have been “far less” in his mind’s eye in moments of inner turmoil, but what he accomplished speaks otherwise. Anakin lost to Obi-Wan. Vader defeated a galaxy.

    *sighs*

    This is not a quote showing Vader doubting himself. This is a quote showing Vader physically not being able to do something that he would have been able to do as Anakin. Actually, part of his force power does come from below his elbows and knees, because midiclorians are present in every part of the body. Therefore, if you lose four limbs like Anakin did, you lose a great deal of midiclorians. In Grievous' case, it is different because Grievous could never use the force. So when he lost his limbs, he didn't lose any abilities that he had before. Also, Palpatine purposefully used less advanced tech when building Vader's suit to punish Vader for wasting his potential.


    With every point given hinging entirely on the loss of hands and feet, and the disfunctional armor, then it stands to reason that one’s strength in the force, and therefore overall power, never changes. Then by extension it can be said that since he had all his limbs, Anakin from Episode 2 was just as powerful as from episode 3. But why stop there... The same applies to Anakin from Episode 1. Would you agree that until the fight a Mustafar, Anakin having all his faculties, was always at the same power level, and more powerful than Vader? I’m fairly certain that you would not.

    Of course force users grow more powerful over time. Someone's IQ when they were 12 might be the same as when they are 40, but obviously the 40 year old is smarter. Midiclorians are the same way. Anakin from Episode 3 is obviously more powerful that Anakin from episode 1. I agree with you here.






    So Vader, like everyone else, has moments of self doubt. Delving into self pity sure didn’t seem to stop him from dominating a galaxy. Guess he got over it.

    And it was more like hands and feet, not legs and arms. Maybe you’re right, since it’s well known that force users true power comes from below the elbows and knees. Surely not the mind, heart, and spirit. Silly me. Shriv must have been really interested in those metacarpals while following his career closely!

    When we’ve debated this before, you’ve pulled quotes stating that Vader’s suit was antiquated, akin to the technology used with Grievous. Grievous, having only lungs, and a heart, and a head, sure seemed to kill a lot of Jedi with that terribly limiting prosthetic technology. And without even the force mind you. I guess you’re just smarter than me because I’m scratching my head trying to figure out how Grievous was enhanced, yet Vader was diminished, using the same technology. Let’s not forget that we’re talking about technology in a galactic community with a multitude of intelligent species with interstellar flight. I gues there prosthetics just weren’t that advanced?

    They have Hyperdrives, but poor medical tech?

    Um... no.

    He may have been “far less” in his mind’s eye in moments of inner turmoil, but what he accomplished speaks otherwise. Anakin lost to Obi-Wan. Vader defeated a galaxy.

    *sighs*

    This is not a quote showing Vader doubting himself. This is a quote showing Vader physically not being able to do something that he would have been able to do as Anakin. Actually, part of his force power does come from below his elbows and knees, because midiclorians are present in every part of the body. Therefore, if you lose four limbs like Anakin did, you lose a great deal of midiclorians. In Grievous' case, it is different because Grievous could never use the force. So when he lost his limbs, he didn't lose any abilities that he had before. Also, Palpatine purposefully used less advanced tech when building Vader's suit to punish Vader for wasting his potential.


    Just as Anakin grew in strength up to and through Episode 3, even having been diminished after losing to Kenobi, with 19 years of growth in the force, Vader in Episode 4 had grown stronger than Anakin was in Episode 3. To argue against this growth in strength due to lost extremities and punishment armor then you must also logically conclude that Anakin in the pod race was also stronger than Darth Vader.

    I don't really see the logic behind this. We have no way of knowing how much Vader grew in the force from ROTS to ANH. Here's a rudimentary example:

    Let's let Anakin's power level before Mustafar be 100x. After Mustafar, for the purposes of this example, let's just say Anakin lost 20x of that power. This leaves the Vader that we see in ROTS at 80x, or 80% of his original power. Now let's say that Vader gains 1x every year until ANH. This means that by the time we see him in ANH, he is still weaker then when we see him in ROTS.

    Of course, these are fabricated numbers. And yet, this solution has the same amount of proof (zero) as your assertion that if ROTS Anakin is stronger the ANH Vader, TPM Anakin must also be stronger than Vader.

    I haven’t asserted anything. All I’ve done is follow your logic that since he lost his hands and feet, he’d never be more powerful than he had been. Which is, always has been, and always will be false reasoning. Darth Vader, Sith Lord, grew in strength in the dark side of the force and his overall power level, despite his injuries and punishment armor(silly that), surmounts what he had been as Anakin, a simple, admittedly powerful, but poor Jedi Knight. A boy, trying to become a man. Well, he did become a man. And he was at his highest power thereafter.

    You said that "To argue against this growth in strength due to lost extremities and punishment armor then you must also logically conclude that Anakin in the pod race was also stronger than Darth Vader. "

    Which is quite simply untrue.

    Correct. Just as it is untrue for Anakin from Episode 3.

    I was referring to you saying that if I concluded that Ep 3 Anakin was stronger than Vader, then I also had to conclude that Ep 1 Anakin was stronger than Vader.
  • So Vader, like everyone else, has moments of self doubt. Delving into self pity sure didn’t seem to stop him from dominating a galaxy. Guess he got over it.

    And it was more like hands and feet, not legs and arms. Maybe you’re right, since it’s well known that force users true power comes from below the elbows and knees. Surely not the mind, heart, and spirit. Silly me. Shriv must have been really interested in those metacarpals while following his career closely!

    When we’ve debated this before, you’ve pulled quotes stating that Vader’s suit was antiquated, akin to the technology used with Grievous. Grievous, having only lungs, and a heart, and a head, sure seemed to kill a lot of Jedi with that terribly limiting prosthetic technology. And without even the force mind you. I guess you’re just smarter than me because I’m scratching my head trying to figure out how Grievous was enhanced, yet Vader was diminished, using the same technology. Let’s not forget that we’re talking about technology in a galactic community with a multitude of intelligent species with interstellar flight. I gues there prosthetics just weren’t that advanced?

    They have Hyperdrives, but poor medical tech?

    Um... no.

    He may have been “far less” in his mind’s eye in moments of inner turmoil, but what he accomplished speaks otherwise. Anakin lost to Obi-Wan. Vader defeated a galaxy.

    *sighs*

    This is not a quote showing Vader doubting himself. This is a quote showing Vader physically not being able to do something that he would have been able to do as Anakin. Actually, part of his force power does come from below his elbows and knees, because midiclorians are present in every part of the body. Therefore, if you lose four limbs like Anakin did, you lose a great deal of midiclorians. In Grievous' case, it is different because Grievous could never use the force. So when he lost his limbs, he didn't lose any abilities that he had before. Also, Palpatine purposefully used less advanced tech when building Vader's suit to punish Vader for wasting his potential.


    With every point given hinging entirely on the loss of hands and feet, and the disfunctional armor, then it stands to reason that one’s strength in the force, and therefore overall power, never changes. Then by extension it can be said that since he had all his limbs, Anakin from Episode 2 was just as powerful as from episode 3. But why stop there... The same applies to Anakin from Episode 1. Would you agree that until the fight a Mustafar, Anakin having all his faculties, was always at the same power level, and more powerful than Vader? I’m fairly certain that you would not.

    Of course force users grow more powerful over time. Someone's IQ when they were 12 might be the same as when they are 40, but obviously the 40 year old is smarter. Midiclorians are the same way. Anakin from Episode 3 is obviously more powerful that Anakin from episode 1. I agree with you here.






    So Vader, like everyone else, has moments of self doubt. Delving into self pity sure didn’t seem to stop him from dominating a galaxy. Guess he got over it.

    And it was more like hands and feet, not legs and arms. Maybe you’re right, since it’s well known that force users true power comes from below the elbows and knees. Surely not the mind, heart, and spirit. Silly me. Shriv must have been really interested in those metacarpals while following his career closely!

    When we’ve debated this before, you’ve pulled quotes stating that Vader’s suit was antiquated, akin to the technology used with Grievous. Grievous, having only lungs, and a heart, and a head, sure seemed to kill a lot of Jedi with that terribly limiting prosthetic technology. And without even the force mind you. I guess you’re just smarter than me because I’m scratching my head trying to figure out how Grievous was enhanced, yet Vader was diminished, using the same technology. Let’s not forget that we’re talking about technology in a galactic community with a multitude of intelligent species with interstellar flight. I gues there prosthetics just weren’t that advanced?

    They have Hyperdrives, but poor medical tech?

    Um... no.

    He may have been “far less” in his mind’s eye in moments of inner turmoil, but what he accomplished speaks otherwise. Anakin lost to Obi-Wan. Vader defeated a galaxy.

    *sighs*

    This is not a quote showing Vader doubting himself. This is a quote showing Vader physically not being able to do something that he would have been able to do as Anakin. Actually, part of his force power does come from below his elbows and knees, because midiclorians are present in every part of the body. Therefore, if you lose four limbs like Anakin did, you lose a great deal of midiclorians. In Grievous' case, it is different because Grievous could never use the force. So when he lost his limbs, he didn't lose any abilities that he had before. Also, Palpatine purposefully used less advanced tech when building Vader's suit to punish Vader for wasting his potential.


    Just as Anakin grew in strength up to and through Episode 3, even having been diminished after losing to Kenobi, with 19 years of growth in the force, Vader in Episode 4 had grown stronger than Anakin was in Episode 3. To argue against this growth in strength due to lost extremities and punishment armor then you must also logically conclude that Anakin in the pod race was also stronger than Darth Vader.

    I don't really see the logic behind this. We have no way of knowing how much Vader grew in the force from ROTS to ANH. Here's a rudimentary example:

    Let's let Anakin's power level before Mustafar be 100x. After Mustafar, for the purposes of this example, let's just say Anakin lost 20x of that power. This leaves the Vader that we see in ROTS at 80x, or 80% of his original power. Now let's say that Vader gains 1x every year until ANH. This means that by the time we see him in ANH, he is still weaker then when we see him in ROTS.

    Of course, these are fabricated numbers. And yet, this solution has the same amount of proof (zero) as your assertion that if ROTS Anakin is stronger the ANH Vader, TPM Anakin must also be stronger than Vader.

    I haven’t asserted anything. All I’ve done is follow your logic that since he lost his hands and feet, he’d never be more powerful than he had been. Which is, always has been, and always will be false reasoning. Darth Vader, Sith Lord, grew in strength in the dark side of the force and his overall power level, despite his injuries and punishment armor(silly that), surmounts what he had been as Anakin, a simple, admittedly powerful, but poor Jedi Knight. A boy, trying to become a man. Well, he did become a man. And he was at his highest power thereafter.

    You said that "To argue against this growth in strength due to lost extremities and punishment armor then you must also logically conclude that Anakin in the pod race was also stronger than Darth Vader. "

    Which is quite simply untrue.

    Correct. Just as it is untrue for Anakin from Episode 3.

    I was referring to you saying that if I concluded that Ep 3 Anakin was stronger than Vader, then I also had to conclude that Ep 1 Anakin was stronger than Vader.

    Right. If the only reason being the loss of hands and feet and the armor, without taking into account one’s strength in the force grows as they do, you must.
  • So Vader, like everyone else, has moments of self doubt. Delving into self pity sure didn’t seem to stop him from dominating a galaxy. Guess he got over it.

    And it was more like hands and feet, not legs and arms. Maybe you’re right, since it’s well known that force users true power comes from below the elbows and knees. Surely not the mind, heart, and spirit. Silly me. Shriv must have been really interested in those metacarpals while following his career closely!

    When we’ve debated this before, you’ve pulled quotes stating that Vader’s suit was antiquated, akin to the technology used with Grievous. Grievous, having only lungs, and a heart, and a head, sure seemed to kill a lot of Jedi with that terribly limiting prosthetic technology. And without even the force mind you. I guess you’re just smarter than me because I’m scratching my head trying to figure out how Grievous was enhanced, yet Vader was diminished, using the same technology. Let’s not forget that we’re talking about technology in a galactic community with a multitude of intelligent species with interstellar flight. I gues there prosthetics just weren’t that advanced?

    They have Hyperdrives, but poor medical tech?

    Um... no.

    He may have been “far less” in his mind’s eye in moments of inner turmoil, but what he accomplished speaks otherwise. Anakin lost to Obi-Wan. Vader defeated a galaxy.

    *sighs*

    This is not a quote showing Vader doubting himself. This is a quote showing Vader physically not being able to do something that he would have been able to do as Anakin. Actually, part of his force power does come from below his elbows and knees, because midiclorians are present in every part of the body. Therefore, if you lose four limbs like Anakin did, you lose a great deal of midiclorians. In Grievous' case, it is different because Grievous could never use the force. So when he lost his limbs, he didn't lose any abilities that he had before. Also, Palpatine purposefully used less advanced tech when building Vader's suit to punish Vader for wasting his potential.


    With every point given hinging entirely on the loss of hands and feet, and the disfunctional armor, then it stands to reason that one’s strength in the force, and therefore overall power, never changes. Then by extension it can be said that since he had all his limbs, Anakin from Episode 2 was just as powerful as from episode 3. But why stop there... The same applies to Anakin from Episode 1. Would you agree that until the fight a Mustafar, Anakin having all his faculties, was always at the same power level, and more powerful than Vader? I’m fairly certain that you would not.

    Of course force users grow more powerful over time. Someone's IQ when they were 12 might be the same as when they are 40, but obviously the 40 year old is smarter. Midiclorians are the same way. Anakin from Episode 3 is obviously more powerful that Anakin from episode 1. I agree with you here.






    So Vader, like everyone else, has moments of self doubt. Delving into self pity sure didn’t seem to stop him from dominating a galaxy. Guess he got over it.

    And it was more like hands and feet, not legs and arms. Maybe you’re right, since it’s well known that force users true power comes from below the elbows and knees. Surely not the mind, heart, and spirit. Silly me. Shriv must have been really interested in those metacarpals while following his career closely!

    When we’ve debated this before, you’ve pulled quotes stating that Vader’s suit was antiquated, akin to the technology used with Grievous. Grievous, having only lungs, and a heart, and a head, sure seemed to kill a lot of Jedi with that terribly limiting prosthetic technology. And without even the force mind you. I guess you’re just smarter than me because I’m scratching my head trying to figure out how Grievous was enhanced, yet Vader was diminished, using the same technology. Let’s not forget that we’re talking about technology in a galactic community with a multitude of intelligent species with interstellar flight. I gues there prosthetics just weren’t that advanced?

    They have Hyperdrives, but poor medical tech?

    Um... no.

    He may have been “far less” in his mind’s eye in moments of inner turmoil, but what he accomplished speaks otherwise. Anakin lost to Obi-Wan. Vader defeated a galaxy.

    *sighs*

    This is not a quote showing Vader doubting himself. This is a quote showing Vader physically not being able to do something that he would have been able to do as Anakin. Actually, part of his force power does come from below his elbows and knees, because midiclorians are present in every part of the body. Therefore, if you lose four limbs like Anakin did, you lose a great deal of midiclorians. In Grievous' case, it is different because Grievous could never use the force. So when he lost his limbs, he didn't lose any abilities that he had before. Also, Palpatine purposefully used less advanced tech when building Vader's suit to punish Vader for wasting his potential.


    Just as Anakin grew in strength up to and through Episode 3, even having been diminished after losing to Kenobi, with 19 years of growth in the force, Vader in Episode 4 had grown stronger than Anakin was in Episode 3. To argue against this growth in strength due to lost extremities and punishment armor then you must also logically conclude that Anakin in the pod race was also stronger than Darth Vader.

    I don't really see the logic behind this. We have no way of knowing how much Vader grew in the force from ROTS to ANH. Here's a rudimentary example:

    Let's let Anakin's power level before Mustafar be 100x. After Mustafar, for the purposes of this example, let's just say Anakin lost 20x of that power. This leaves the Vader that we see in ROTS at 80x, or 80% of his original power. Now let's say that Vader gains 1x every year until ANH. This means that by the time we see him in ANH, he is still weaker then when we see him in ROTS.

    Of course, these are fabricated numbers. And yet, this solution has the same amount of proof (zero) as your assertion that if ROTS Anakin is stronger the ANH Vader, TPM Anakin must also be stronger than Vader.

    I haven’t asserted anything. All I’ve done is follow your logic that since he lost his hands and feet, he’d never be more powerful than he had been. Which is, always has been, and always will be false reasoning. Darth Vader, Sith Lord, grew in strength in the dark side of the force and his overall power level, despite his injuries and punishment armor(silly that), surmounts what he had been as Anakin, a simple, admittedly powerful, but poor Jedi Knight. A boy, trying to become a man. Well, he did become a man. And he was at his highest power thereafter.

    You said that "To argue against this growth in strength due to lost extremities and punishment armor then you must also logically conclude that Anakin in the pod race was also stronger than Darth Vader. "

    Which is quite simply untrue.

    Correct. Just as it is untrue for Anakin from Episode 3.

    I was referring to you saying that if I concluded that Ep 3 Anakin was stronger than Vader, then I also had to conclude that Ep 1 Anakin was stronger than Vader.

    Right. If the only reason being the loss of hands and feet and the armor, without taking into account one’s strength in the force grows as they do, you must.

    Which was why I posted an example. It is entirely possible that:

    Ep 1 Anakin starts below Vader
    By Ep 3 Anakin is above Vader
    Vader is cut in half and is now in between them
    Vader grows in power but never reaches Ep 3 Anakin's level
  • AzorAhai
    1359 posts Member
    edited March 6
    "When I left you, I was but the learner. Now I am the master."

    I wonder what kind of things happened between that time to make Vader think he was ready to face the guy who defeated him before.

    EDIT: I was but "THE learner" not "a learner." Just looked it up.
  • AzorAhai
    1359 posts Member
    AzorAhai wrote: »
    "When I left you, I was but a learner. Now I am the master."

    I wonder what kind of things happened between that time to make Vader think he was ready to face the guy who defeated him before.

    I would like to throw in that, while I'm a fan of ALL Star Wars movies (and series!), I think Lucas did a HORRIBLE job of stitching the 2 trilogies together.
  • So Vader, like everyone else, has moments of self doubt. Delving into self pity sure didn’t seem to stop him from dominating a galaxy. Guess he got over it.

    And it was more like hands and feet, not legs and arms. Maybe you’re right, since it’s well known that force users true power comes from below the elbows and knees. Surely not the mind, heart, and spirit. Silly me. Shriv must have been really interested in those metacarpals while following his career closely!

    When we’ve debated this before, you’ve pulled quotes stating that Vader’s suit was antiquated, akin to the technology used with Grievous. Grievous, having only lungs, and a heart, and a head, sure seemed to kill a lot of Jedi with that terribly limiting prosthetic technology. And without even the force mind you. I guess you’re just smarter than me because I’m scratching my head trying to figure out how Grievous was enhanced, yet Vader was diminished, using the same technology. Let’s not forget that we’re talking about technology in a galactic community with a multitude of intelligent species with interstellar flight. I gues there prosthetics just weren’t that advanced?

    They have Hyperdrives, but poor medical tech?

    Um... no.

    He may have been “far less” in his mind’s eye in moments of inner turmoil, but what he accomplished speaks otherwise. Anakin lost to Obi-Wan. Vader defeated a galaxy.

    *sighs*

    This is not a quote showing Vader doubting himself. This is a quote showing Vader physically not being able to do something that he would have been able to do as Anakin. Actually, part of his force power does come from below his elbows and knees, because midiclorians are present in every part of the body. Therefore, if you lose four limbs like Anakin did, you lose a great deal of midiclorians. In Grievous' case, it is different because Grievous could never use the force. So when he lost his limbs, he didn't lose any abilities that he had before. Also, Palpatine purposefully used less advanced tech when building Vader's suit to punish Vader for wasting his potential.


    With every point given hinging entirely on the loss of hands and feet, and the disfunctional armor, then it stands to reason that one’s strength in the force, and therefore overall power, never changes. Then by extension it can be said that since he had all his limbs, Anakin from Episode 2 was just as powerful as from episode 3. But why stop there... The same applies to Anakin from Episode 1. Would you agree that until the fight a Mustafar, Anakin having all his faculties, was always at the same power level, and more powerful than Vader? I’m fairly certain that you would not.

    Of course force users grow more powerful over time. Someone's IQ when they were 12 might be the same as when they are 40, but obviously the 40 year old is smarter. Midiclorians are the same way. Anakin from Episode 3 is obviously more powerful that Anakin from episode 1. I agree with you here.






    So Vader, like everyone else, has moments of self doubt. Delving into self pity sure didn’t seem to stop him from dominating a galaxy. Guess he got over it.

    And it was more like hands and feet, not legs and arms. Maybe you’re right, since it’s well known that force users true power comes from below the elbows and knees. Surely not the mind, heart, and spirit. Silly me. Shriv must have been really interested in those metacarpals while following his career closely!

    When we’ve debated this before, you’ve pulled quotes stating that Vader’s suit was antiquated, akin to the technology used with Grievous. Grievous, having only lungs, and a heart, and a head, sure seemed to kill a lot of Jedi with that terribly limiting prosthetic technology. And without even the force mind you. I guess you’re just smarter than me because I’m scratching my head trying to figure out how Grievous was enhanced, yet Vader was diminished, using the same technology. Let’s not forget that we’re talking about technology in a galactic community with a multitude of intelligent species with interstellar flight. I gues there prosthetics just weren’t that advanced?

    They have Hyperdrives, but poor medical tech?

    Um... no.

    He may have been “far less” in his mind’s eye in moments of inner turmoil, but what he accomplished speaks otherwise. Anakin lost to Obi-Wan. Vader defeated a galaxy.

    *sighs*

    This is not a quote showing Vader doubting himself. This is a quote showing Vader physically not being able to do something that he would have been able to do as Anakin. Actually, part of his force power does come from below his elbows and knees, because midiclorians are present in every part of the body. Therefore, if you lose four limbs like Anakin did, you lose a great deal of midiclorians. In Grievous' case, it is different because Grievous could never use the force. So when he lost his limbs, he didn't lose any abilities that he had before. Also, Palpatine purposefully used less advanced tech when building Vader's suit to punish Vader for wasting his potential.


    Just as Anakin grew in strength up to and through Episode 3, even having been diminished after losing to Kenobi, with 19 years of growth in the force, Vader in Episode 4 had grown stronger than Anakin was in Episode 3. To argue against this growth in strength due to lost extremities and punishment armor then you must also logically conclude that Anakin in the pod race was also stronger than Darth Vader.

    I don't really see the logic behind this. We have no way of knowing how much Vader grew in the force from ROTS to ANH. Here's a rudimentary example:

    Let's let Anakin's power level before Mustafar be 100x. After Mustafar, for the purposes of this example, let's just say Anakin lost 20x of that power. This leaves the Vader that we see in ROTS at 80x, or 80% of his original power. Now let's say that Vader gains 1x every year until ANH. This means that by the time we see him in ANH, he is still weaker then when we see him in ROTS.

    Of course, these are fabricated numbers. And yet, this solution has the same amount of proof (zero) as your assertion that if ROTS Anakin is stronger the ANH Vader, TPM Anakin must also be stronger than Vader.

    I haven’t asserted anything. All I’ve done is follow your logic that since he lost his hands and feet, he’d never be more powerful than he had been. Which is, always has been, and always will be false reasoning. Darth Vader, Sith Lord, grew in strength in the dark side of the force and his overall power level, despite his injuries and punishment armor(silly that), surmounts what he had been as Anakin, a simple, admittedly powerful, but poor Jedi Knight. A boy, trying to become a man. Well, he did become a man. And he was at his highest power thereafter.

    You said that "To argue against this growth in strength due to lost extremities and punishment armor then you must also logically conclude that Anakin in the pod race was also stronger than Darth Vader. "

    Which is quite simply untrue.

    Correct. Just as it is untrue for Anakin from Episode 3.

    I was referring to you saying that if I concluded that Ep 3 Anakin was stronger than Vader, then I also had to conclude that Ep 1 Anakin was stronger than Vader.

    Right. If the only reason being the loss of hands and feet and the armor, without taking into account one’s strength in the force grows as they do, you must.

    Which was why I posted an example. It is entirely possible that:

    Ep 1 Anakin starts below Vader
    By Ep 3 Anakin is above Vader
    Vader is cut in half and is now in between them
    Vader grows in power but never reaches Ep 3 Anakin's level
    I’ve enjoyed and appreciated this debate with you, @MyLittleGreenFriend, and I look forward to more interactions going forward. Unlike many around these parts, you’ve maintained a quality and standard of communication that has earned my gratitude.

    I think our discussion comes to and end, at this point.

    You feel as if Anakin’s peak power was during his defeat at the hands of Obi-Wan Kenobi on Mustafar, and because of his injuries and armor, Darth Vader was never as powerful as Anakin had been. Much less more powerful.

    I see no way reasonably possible that Darth Vader, in the 19 years between RotS and ANH, didn’t grow way beyond what he had been as a Jedi Knight.


    It’s clear that for now at least, neither of us will be swayed from our positions. Respect, and may the force be with you.
  • So Vader, like everyone else, has moments of self doubt. Delving into self pity sure didn’t seem to stop him from dominating a galaxy. Guess he got over it.

    And it was more like hands and feet, not legs and arms. Maybe you’re right, since it’s well known that force users true power comes from below the elbows and knees. Surely not the mind, heart, and spirit. Silly me. Shriv must have been really interested in those metacarpals while following his career closely!

    When we’ve debated this before, you’ve pulled quotes stating that Vader’s suit was antiquated, akin to the technology used with Grievous. Grievous, having only lungs, and a heart, and a head, sure seemed to kill a lot of Jedi with that terribly limiting prosthetic technology. And without even the force mind you. I guess you’re just smarter than me because I’m scratching my head trying to figure out how Grievous was enhanced, yet Vader was diminished, using the same technology. Let’s not forget that we’re talking about technology in a galactic community with a multitude of intelligent species with interstellar flight. I gues there prosthetics just weren’t that advanced?

    They have Hyperdrives, but poor medical tech?

    Um... no.

    He may have been “far less” in his mind’s eye in moments of inner turmoil, but what he accomplished speaks otherwise. Anakin lost to Obi-Wan. Vader defeated a galaxy.

    *sighs*

    This is not a quote showing Vader doubting himself. This is a quote showing Vader physically not being able to do something that he would have been able to do as Anakin. Actually, part of his force power does come from below his elbows and knees, because midiclorians are present in every part of the body. Therefore, if you lose four limbs like Anakin did, you lose a great deal of midiclorians. In Grievous' case, it is different because Grievous could never use the force. So when he lost his limbs, he didn't lose any abilities that he had before. Also, Palpatine purposefully used less advanced tech when building Vader's suit to punish Vader for wasting his potential.


    With every point given hinging entirely on the loss of hands and feet, and the disfunctional armor, then it stands to reason that one’s strength in the force, and therefore overall power, never changes. Then by extension it can be said that since he had all his limbs, Anakin from Episode 2 was just as powerful as from episode 3. But why stop there... The same applies to Anakin from Episode 1. Would you agree that until the fight a Mustafar, Anakin having all his faculties, was always at the same power level, and more powerful than Vader? I’m fairly certain that you would not.

    Of course force users grow more powerful over time. Someone's IQ when they were 12 might be the same as when they are 40, but obviously the 40 year old is smarter. Midiclorians are the same way. Anakin from Episode 3 is obviously more powerful that Anakin from episode 1. I agree with you here.






    So Vader, like everyone else, has moments of self doubt. Delving into self pity sure didn’t seem to stop him from dominating a galaxy. Guess he got over it.

    And it was more like hands and feet, not legs and arms. Maybe you’re right, since it’s well known that force users true power comes from below the elbows and knees. Surely not the mind, heart, and spirit. Silly me. Shriv must have been really interested in those metacarpals while following his career closely!

    When we’ve debated this before, you’ve pulled quotes stating that Vader’s suit was antiquated, akin to the technology used with Grievous. Grievous, having only lungs, and a heart, and a head, sure seemed to kill a lot of Jedi with that terribly limiting prosthetic technology. And without even the force mind you. I guess you’re just smarter than me because I’m scratching my head trying to figure out how Grievous was enhanced, yet Vader was diminished, using the same technology. Let’s not forget that we’re talking about technology in a galactic community with a multitude of intelligent species with interstellar flight. I gues there prosthetics just weren’t that advanced?

    They have Hyperdrives, but poor medical tech?

    Um... no.

    He may have been “far less” in his mind’s eye in moments of inner turmoil, but what he accomplished speaks otherwise. Anakin lost to Obi-Wan. Vader defeated a galaxy.

    *sighs*

    This is not a quote showing Vader doubting himself. This is a quote showing Vader physically not being able to do something that he would have been able to do as Anakin. Actually, part of his force power does come from below his elbows and knees, because midiclorians are present in every part of the body. Therefore, if you lose four limbs like Anakin did, you lose a great deal of midiclorians. In Grievous' case, it is different because Grievous could never use the force. So when he lost his limbs, he didn't lose any abilities that he had before. Also, Palpatine purposefully used less advanced tech when building Vader's suit to punish Vader for wasting his potential.


    Just as Anakin grew in strength up to and through Episode 3, even having been diminished after losing to Kenobi, with 19 years of growth in the force, Vader in Episode 4 had grown stronger than Anakin was in Episode 3. To argue against this growth in strength due to lost extremities and punishment armor then you must also logically conclude that Anakin in the pod race was also stronger than Darth Vader.

    I don't really see the logic behind this. We have no way of knowing how much Vader grew in the force from ROTS to ANH. Here's a rudimentary example:

    Let's let Anakin's power level before Mustafar be 100x. After Mustafar, for the purposes of this example, let's just say Anakin lost 20x of that power. This leaves the Vader that we see in ROTS at 80x, or 80% of his original power. Now let's say that Vader gains 1x every year until ANH. This means that by the time we see him in ANH, he is still weaker then when we see him in ROTS.

    Of course, these are fabricated numbers. And yet, this solution has the same amount of proof (zero) as your assertion that if ROTS Anakin is stronger the ANH Vader, TPM Anakin must also be stronger than Vader.

    I haven’t asserted anything. All I’ve done is follow your logic that since he lost his hands and feet, he’d never be more powerful than he had been. Which is, always has been, and always will be false reasoning. Darth Vader, Sith Lord, grew in strength in the dark side of the force and his overall power level, despite his injuries and punishment armor(silly that), surmounts what he had been as Anakin, a simple, admittedly powerful, but poor Jedi Knight. A boy, trying to become a man. Well, he did become a man. And he was at his highest power thereafter.

    You said that "To argue against this growth in strength due to lost extremities and punishment armor then you must also logically conclude that Anakin in the pod race was also stronger than Darth Vader. "

    Which is quite simply untrue.

    Correct. Just as it is untrue for Anakin from Episode 3.

    I was referring to you saying that if I concluded that Ep 3 Anakin was stronger than Vader, then I also had to conclude that Ep 1 Anakin was stronger than Vader.

    Right. If the only reason being the loss of hands and feet and the armor, without taking into account one’s strength in the force grows as they do, you must.

    Which was why I posted an example. It is entirely possible that:

    Ep 1 Anakin starts below Vader
    By Ep 3 Anakin is above Vader
    Vader is cut in half and is now in between them
    Vader grows in power but never reaches Ep 3 Anakin's level
    I’ve enjoyed and appreciated this debate with you, @MyLittleGreenFriend, and I look forward to more interactions going forward. Unlike many around these parts, you’ve maintained a quality and standard of communication that has earned my gratitude.

    I think our discussion comes to and end, at this point.

    You feel as if Anakin’s peak power was during his defeat at the hands of Obi-Wan Kenobi on Mustafar, and because of his injuries and armor, Darth Vader was never as powerful as Anakin had been. Much less more powerful.

    I see no way reasonably possible that Darth Vader, in the 19 years between RotS and ANH, didn’t grow way beyond what he had been as a Jedi Knight.


    It’s clear that for now at least, neither of us will be swayed from our positions. Respect, and may the force be with you.

    I do understand your point, and you've heightened my opinion of suit Vader. Thanks for a great debate. ;)
  • @MyLittleGreenFriend

    Wait... I just remembered, you’re a Patriots fan!
    I take it all back! You are wrong about everything!

    #MiamiDolphins
  • MyLittleGreenFriend
    3521 posts Member
    edited March 6
    @MyLittleGreenFriend

    Wait... I just remembered, you’re a Patriots fan!
    I take it all back! You are wrong about everything!

    #MiamiDolphins

    ojkr5hvfh7t6.png

    Couldn't resist...
    sorry
  • @MyLittleGreenFriend

    Wait... I just remembered, you’re a Patriots fan!
    I take it all back! You are wrong about everything!

    #MiamiDolphins

    ojkr5hvfh7t6.png

    Couldn't resist...
    sorry

    Ok, that’s just hilarious! The kicker is it true!
  • bfloo
    15816 posts Member
    A Pats fan :'(

    At least Eli beat them twice for me <3

    The Knights of Gareth are Eternal

    Pirate of the Knights of Gareth

    h846398gb27k.png


  • @MyLittleGreenFriend

    Wait... I just remembered, you’re a Patriots fan!
    I take it all back! You are wrong about everything!

    #MiamiDolphins

    Well, like football, be one with the force.

    csotu4lut38g.png


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