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I'm worried about Hero vs Villain combat and longevity, especially for lightsaber wielders

Landeaux
3467 posts Member
edited October 2017
Before I go over my reasons for my worries and a potential solution that I have in mind, let me go over a few facts and observations...

Heroes have less health than Battlefront 1. Heroes do heavy damage to one another in Battlefront 2. Less health coupled with decent damage output equals very short hero vs villain fights. When I was playing as Rey once, I had at least 600 health and all I saw was Darth Maul spin in front of me before my screen suddenly went gray. It didn't take much for him to beat me. A few saber swings and I was gone. When I was Darth Maul and a Rey initiated the fight by using her Jedi Mind Trick, I stood no chance. I died almost immediately. She mind tricked me and swung her saber a few times before I was killed. Let's compare hero vs villain combat between Battlefront 1 and Battlefront 2 from the perspective of the duration of the duel...


I will give credit where credit is due: Luke vs Vader was an interesting and compelling duel. The last patch of the game made their duels especially intense. Vader had more health and hit harder with his lightsaber but Luke was faster and could Force Push through Vader's block. These fights could last for a good couple of minutes. Each player was studying the other and trying to find strategic ways to damage the other while simultaneously remaining guarded. You had to pick your moves wisely to win. The long "staredowns" was what made these lightsaber fights seem authentic; both characters guarded and in a blocking position to counter any sudden movements. Darth Vader could reduce Luke's healthbar by 9 points per lightsaber hit. Likewise, Luke could reduce Vader's healthbar by 6 points her lightsaber hit. When these characters were battling other heroes/villains, they did about 8-10 damage per lightsaber hit. This prolonged duels because if you were just using your basic attack, it would take 12 basic attacks from Vader to finish off Luke, and it would take 17 basic attacks from Luke to finish off Vader. It would take 10 hits to take out any other hero/villain. Obviously these duels didn't occur in a vacuum. Heroes used more than their basic attacks. Luke would use his Force Push, Vader would use his Force Choke, etc. Heroes would be able to endure the damage due to their relatively high health numbers.
Fast forward to Battlefront 2 heroes. Heroes have significantly less health than the last game but they inflict similar damage output to their counterparts. It's hard to decipher exactly how much one lightsaber hit does to an opposing hero/villain right now due to Arcade Duels being deactivated at the moment. Either way, lets assume you lose about 150 health per saber hit. Whether it was Rey vs Maul or Maul vs Rey, each have 700 health. It would only take 5 saber swings to connect in order to kill the other hero. Compare that to the required hits of a Luke vs Vader fight. It now requires 1/2 or even 1/3 of the basic attacks to land in order to kill the opposing hero/villain. Again, since these duels wont be in a vacuum, dealing damage to the opposing hero/villain with abilities exacerbates the situation because the opponent will die even quicker. I am very worried that duels wont feel authentic or intense anymore. I am fearful that it will become "whoever initiates first" or "whoever lands their combo first" wins. I like the new physics system of heroes in Battlefront 2. I think they made the heroes more unique. They need to control the damage output that they do to each other, though, or they will risk losing the authentic feeling of heroes battling villains. I do have a solution in mind for containing this issue...


We know that the hero development team can control the damage output that heroes do to each other. They can even specifically control the damage output of one hero ability inflicted on another specific character. We saw this with Luke doing extra damage to Vader with his Force Push and Boba's flamethrower doing extra damage to Chewie. I propose that heroes do 50% reduced damage to opposing heroes in order to prolong their fights or duels. Yeah, 50% seems like a large damage dropoff but it would actually create similar hero damage numbers from the last game. Heroes have about 40-50% less health but they do close to the same amount of damage. Reducing the damage inflicted on one another would return the damage output numbers to Battlefront 1's standards so we could once again have long and intense hero duels, especially duels that take place between lightsaber heroes...

What do yall think? Do yall have a similar anxiety about hero interactions? Do yall have a different perspective? Do yall like my proposed solution? Do yall have a different solution? Thanks for reading.

Replies

  • Well there's a reason it's a beta right now, all values will be tweaked before game release and will be tweaked as the game goes on. Yeah, it doesn't take long to kill Rey or Maul let alone Han or Boba. The health system is just that, new. Takes a bit to adjust to it and make changes. From me playing Maul it seems every saber swing will do 100 damage or a bit over. Because it takes two hits to kill a Heavy and they have 200 health. Though it takes two to kill a Assault as well and they have 150. So I think it averages around 125 damage per swing or so. Hard to judge based on no versus or custom matches to test it.
  • Something between endless power in bf1 and quick and easy death in BF2 would be nice. This game needs a lot of work still. It all feels so rushed
  • Not a bad idea.

    I don't know if I'm expecting authentic hero fights to begin with though. While I completely understand why they chose not to give Maul a block and am not as bothered by that fact as others, that decision will really hinder his use in any kind of extended lightsaber duel.

    Let's hope that he's the only lightsaber user without a block(although I suspect Yoda might be missing one as well at launch).
    #JustSayNoToReyLo
  • Landeaux
    3467 posts Member
    Not a bad idea.

    I don't know if I'm expecting authentic hero fights to begin with though. While I completely understand why they chose not to give Maul a block and am not as bothered by that fact as others, that decision will really hinder his use in any kind of extended lightsaber duel.

    Let's hope that he's the only lightsaber user without a block(although I suspect Yoda might be missing one as well at launch).

    FWIW: Guillaume stated on twitter that Maul was the only lightsaber wielder that he has worked on that didn’t have a block.
  • Landeaux wrote: »
    Not a bad idea.

    I don't know if I'm expecting authentic hero fights to begin with though. While I completely understand why they chose not to give Maul a block and am not as bothered by that fact as others, that decision will really hinder his use in any kind of extended lightsaber duel.

    Let's hope that he's the only lightsaber user without a block(although I suspect Yoda might be missing one as well at launch).

    FWIW: Guillaume stated on twitter that Maul was the only lightsaber wielder that he has worked on that didn’t have a block.

    Well that's a relief at least.
    #JustSayNoToReyLo
  • KrolJulian1916
    1159 posts Member
    edited October 2017
    You are damn right. As firsts Battlefront lighsaber combat felt, hm, strange there was some tactics and schemes involved. When I dueled newcomer I easily won any duels if wasn't surrounded. Here, yeah, like you said- 1 sec and it's actually over. Only thing u need is rotating your camera to your opponent. Also, experienced Reys Mind Trick as Maul and can say its a thing I didn't enjoy at all. You ask good questions, I would ask one more- what about HvV? I mean- HvV was one of most popular modes, involved tactics for infantry, heroes had to think if they wanted to last till the end and win the round. In bf2 I fear we will get Hero Blast, where force users are completely dominant and whole gameplay is just mindless fest. In BF1 blaster wielding hero could hold his own against one with lightsaber.
  • Agreed
  • Well, I kinda like that heroes die faster. But not in this way, where who ever initiates or gets their combo off first gets an easy win. With Maul, his Spin Attack into Choke into Spin Attack and a saber swing or two just deletes Rey. Likewise, Rey using Mind Trick on Maul and then Rush Attack with a saber swing or two deletes Maul.

    And the "saber combat" in Beta is non existent. I know it's just a beta, but I'm genuinely worried about how they will fight each other. 'Cause they also brought back the stun on getting blocked. They need to get rid of that and make it only when you time your block to the enemy's attack (within .5 seconds of the attack). Just played as Maul v Rey in GA, and as I was attacking, she blocked. I'm fine with that, and even the fact that it stuns Maul. But the way that you can just spam it, makes Maul weak to Jedi.
    We need a Tier System for the Heroes. It would justify the "op-ness" of Vader over Han and Chewbacca. It would cost much more to unlock Vader, and would require you to save a lot more than for other heroes and vehicles, but it would be rewarding in the end...

    "It would essentially ruin the eras and turn them into nothing much more than the same thing and same experience but with a different skin. Which is contrary to the point in having eras in the first place." - ZmanGames
  • Landeaux
    3467 posts Member
    edited October 2017
    Well, I kinda like that heroes die faster. But not in this way, where who ever initiates or gets their combo off first gets an easy win. With Maul, his Spin Attack into Choke into Spin Attack and a saber swing or two just deletes Rey. Likewise, Rey using Mind Trick on Maul and then Rush Attack with a saber swing or two deletes Maul.

    And the "saber combat" in Beta is non existent. I know it's just a beta, but I'm genuinely worried about how they will fight each other. 'Cause they also brought back the stun on getting blocked. They need to get rid of that and make it only when you time your block to the enemy's attack (within .5 seconds of the attack). Just played as Maul v Rey in GA, and as I was attacking, she blocked. I'm fine with that, and even the fact that it stuns Maul. But the way that you can just spam it, makes Maul weak to Jedi.

    Wait you get stunned for blocking??? Is that why I was blocking a Maul yesterday and suddenly stopped blocking and died? Ugh. I’ve never heard of lightsaber users getting stunned for blocking....in game it in canon. Why would they implement that? That’s terrible
  • I just need to see some Yoda vs. Vader or Luke vs. Vader to see what the lightsaber combat is truly going to be like, since all those characters can block. Of course once we actually get a fair amount of lightsaber and prequel heroes then saber combat will be a pretty main and big thing. I agree, I hope we have a Grievous vs. Obi-Wan fight that can last longer than 20 seconds.
    CIS: OOM-9, Sebulba, Nute Gunray
    Republic: Coleman Trebor, Shmi Skywalker, The clone that fell with Padme
    Rebels: Lobot, Willrow Hood, Rebel Friend
    Empire: Rancor Keeper, Walrus Man, Dagobah Luke-Face Vader
    First Order: The stormtrooper with blood on his face
    Resistance: I couldn't care less
  • Alex64
    7408 posts Member
    Nobody think of the blaster heroes
    The kind mixed with the wicked, the will to fight until the end, I'm not your enemy or friend.
  • Without delving into numerical balance and what have you I am indeed worried.

    In the last one encounters took some thought. Vader vs luke, you had to mind screw luke so that he wouldn't just run at you and mash buttons.

    But from what I've seen in this game the melee heroes just get a jump on one another and smack each other.

    With maul vs rey it's:

    Maul sees rey

    Maul chokes rey

    Maul bends the reality of space time to ruin reys world in just seconds.

    I'm sure there will be more direct counters to characters, but Idk. It might become more strategic after we actually get our cards though.

    Because at that point you can't just button mash. Because not every hero is going to play the same.

    Not sure how much I can say without getting in trouble, but let's just say from match to match one maul might "play differently" than the other


  • Landeaux
    3467 posts Member
    edited October 2017
    Alex64 wrote: »
    Nobody think of the blaster heroes

    Trust me, I do. I just don’t know how to frame that argument
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