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Sequel Trilogy content

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Replies

  • SnakeMajin wrote: »
    I also think Episode 9 has the cards to redeem some stuff. It just doesn't start well with Kylo "f*cked-my-mask-but-now-I-am-the-boss-so-I-repair-it" Ren and "I'm-desert-hobo-then-jedi-then-hobo-back-again-with-a-samurai-pony-tail" Rey.

    Just like Rogue One actually brought light and corrected a ANH easy plot hole with the Death Star weak point ?

    Anyway, ST should have content. It is canon, it has visibiltiy these years and it has fans. Whether we are among them or not won't should not change that. I actually have fun with Rey, Kylo or ST maps except Jakku in the game !

    True, but nothing will ever truly fix what The Last Jedi did.

    People said the same thing about the prequels and the sequels were suppose to “fix” them. The sad thing is that because of how people formulate their issues with the prequels all the negativity becomes something that brings about unintended consequences. For instance, for all of the shortcomings in the prequels, it has arguably the best world building. People cried about “too much politics not enough character development” and thus we have the people in charge of the sequels avoiding the world building in the movies and putting it in the new eu.

    Not only that but people tend to just make up things to justify their point of view. When they have a weak argument they resort to clever names and catch phrases and disguise them as talking points. “Rey is a mary sue” “tfa is anh 2.0” “leia poppins”. Now i am not saying that these particular issues have no substance behind them. I am saying that the substance becomes irrelevant because why should a person have to come up with relevant conversation when they have what the internet deems to be witty comebacks? It is no coincidence that the prequels have developed a meme following because the people who started that trend were just making fun of the movies as well as the fans.

    It is also forgotten that although the original trilogy is beloved now at one point you were considered a big time nerd for liking star wars. This is probably how the elitist attitude developed because after the phantom menace star wars was mainstream and a lot of people who were made fun of before were now part of a larger culture they did not connect with.

    Just food for thought
  • TLJ needs to die. Kill it if you have to.
    PSN: BucksawBoushh
  • Cane_danko wrote: »
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    I also think Episode 9 has the cards to redeem some stuff. It just doesn't start well with Kylo "f*cked-my-mask-but-now-I-am-the-boss-so-I-repair-it" Ren and "I'm-desert-hobo-then-jedi-then-hobo-back-again-with-a-samurai-pony-tail" Rey.

    Just like Rogue One actually brought light and corrected a ANH easy plot hole with the Death Star weak point ?

    Anyway, ST should have content. It is canon, it has visibiltiy these years and it has fans. Whether we are among them or not won't should not change that. I actually have fun with Rey, Kylo or ST maps except Jakku in the game !

    True, but nothing will ever truly fix what The Last Jedi did.

    People said the same thing about the prequels and the sequels were suppose to “fix” them. The sad thing is that because of how people formulate their issues with the prequels all the negativity becomes something that brings about unintended consequences. For instance, for all of the shortcomings in the prequels, it has arguably the best world building. People cried about “too much politics not enough character development” and thus we have the people in charge of the sequels avoiding the world building in the movies and putting it in the new eu.

    Not only that but people tend to just make up things to justify their point of view. When they have a weak argument they resort to clever names and catch phrases and disguise them as talking points. “Rey is a mary sue” “tfa is anh 2.0” “leia poppins”. Now i am not saying that these particular issues have no substance behind them. I am saying that the substance becomes irrelevant because why should a person have to come up with relevant conversation when they have what the internet deems to be witty comebacks? It is no coincidence that the prequels have developed a meme following because the people who started that trend were just making fun of the movies as well as the fans.

    It is also forgotten that although the original trilogy is beloved now at one point you were considered a big time nerd for liking star wars. This is probably how the elitist attitude developed because after the phantom menace star wars was mainstream and a lot of people who were made fun of before were now part of a larger culture they did not connect with.

    Just food for thought
    I said it before and I’ll say it again, no one hates Star Wars more than Star Wars “fans”
  • TLJ needs to die. Kill it if you have to.


    This ain’t it chief
  • TLJ needs to die. Kill it if you have to.

    Oh, i don’t think so.
  • Cane_danko wrote: »
    TLJ needs to die. Kill it if you have to.

    Oh, i don’t think so.

    You didn’t use a gif...
    Heroes are born on the battlefront... especially if you play the objective.
    kui7ctmgyzll.png
  • Cane_danko
    1072 posts Member
    Privata wrote: »
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    I mean everyone knows the quality of movies goes OT > sequels > prequels. Anything else is just opinion.

    I'd beg to differ.
    OT tops it. But as of now, with the two films it had, ST fails :

    - Barely anything brought to the universe and lore, unless you consider black TIE Fighters, blue X-Wings, square-antenna Falcon, and Earth-looking planets a step forward from OT.
    - No context. The rare derivative risks lose all taste as not built properly (Snoke...).
    - No long-term vision : just look at the designs of Rey and Kylo, step back from Ep.8.
    - Mary-Sue hero = No fear for the character = No attachment. Just like Captain Marvel.

    Cinematic and visual qualities don't make it all. Yet I'd be happy to see Ep.9 reversing the trend by providing a lot to the overall Star Wars universe while justifying choices from previous films and providing lacking context.

    The new ships are perfect IMO, I mean the Nebulon C is the best thing ever.
    And the T-75s are amazing

    The Resistance and the new republic dynamic is super interesting with the parts of the government starting to get somewhat nostalgic to Empire, seing Leia as a warmonger with too much of her father in her. its amazing.

    The context is explained not just via dialogue but also via musical and visual cues (however the Leia and Vader stuff is from Bloodline)
    The First Order is a faction of Imperials who never surrendered who went to hide into the unknown regions. They doubled down on everything the Empire did becoming a nation without culture, without art just a war machine.

    The FO is the Empire without civilian words (while not stated in the movie they have civilians but they are mostly slaves)

    Snoke is basically like Maul, he his the source of most of Kylo's downfall killing him was a important turning point for the lore, Kylo and the conflict in general. it changed the status quo.
    The Evil Apprentice turned on his master, but this time it was it was neither how Palpatine and other Sith did so before, nor how Vader did it to save Luke, he is still stuck between light and dark unable to understand what he wants.

    This is just speculation but given the depth and how everything in the ST so far has meaning I expect Kylo's helmet is linked to Kintsugi

    They have a plan, Palpatine and the general end goal of whats going on has not changed, the journey to reaching that point however has changed. anyway the OT lacked a plan and the PTs got changed all the time and they turned out fine

    Rey is amazing
    She spent all her life on Jakku with nothing, had to fight every day to survive, yet she is vulnerable.
    In TFA she spends half the movie terrified, sweating out of fear, nearly crashes the falcon, gets captured, misses her first blaster shots, nearly looses against Kylo who was bleeding out and mentally unwell.

    In TLJ she spends half the movie in tears, gets letdown by her master only to ultimately learn the price and reward of failure from him, during the throne room fight she is over powered by the guards who would have killed her if it was not for her uneasy alliance with Ren.

    After everything that happened she understands Luke warnings and teaching but Luke finds part of himself in Rey and they learn from each other
    She picks up the torch, but before that Luke has his amazing final stand on Crait.

    So, Rey is not a mary sue. beyond being the complete opposite of one and being one of the leads that suffers the most.

    I find rey way more interesting than luke was in the OT. I always found luke to be kinda whiney. Which is funny because ot people think kylo is. I guess what obiwan said about our own point of view is truer than just the context he spoke it in. That being said i love old man luke. Cranky and sarcastic. Kind of like me.
  • We need bombers for the Resistance and First Order!

    We also need more heroes, maybe Poe and Hux?

    Resistance Bomber Concept:
    MG-100 StarFortress SF-17 (A.K.A. B/SF-17 heavy bomber and Resistance Bomber)
    MG-100_Starfortress.png

    Health: 3,000
    Damage: Same as Millenium Falcon?
    Rate of Fire: 5 shots before cooldown
    Speed: VERY slow, top speed is default speed of X-Wing

    Abilities:
    Bombs Away: The Resistance Bomber drops six bombs, each doing 300 damage to nearby ships.
    Speed Boost: The Resistance Bomber gains a short speed boost, which allows it to go as fast as a top speed Millenium Falcon for 7 seconds.
    Repair: The Resistance Bomber heals itself by 500 hp.

    The idea is that it would be a very large ship, with very low speed but lots of firepower to make up for it.

    This
    Where's the offline content?
    ehwmyfbp0dvm.gif
  • Privata wrote: »
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    I mean everyone knows the quality of movies goes OT > sequels > prequels. Anything else is just opinion.

    I'd beg to differ.
    OT tops it. But as of now, with the two films it had, ST fails :

    - Barely anything brought to the universe and lore, unless you consider black TIE Fighters, blue X-Wings, square-antenna Falcon, and Earth-looking planets a step forward from OT.
    - No context. The rare derivative risks lose all taste as not built properly (Snoke...).
    - No long-term vision : just look at the designs of Rey and Kylo, step back from Ep.8.
    - Mary-Sue hero = No fear for the character = No attachment. Just like Captain Marvel.

    Cinematic and visual qualities don't make it all. Yet I'd be happy to see Ep.9 reversing the trend by providing a lot to the overall Star Wars universe while justifying choices from previous films and providing lacking context.

    The new ships are perfect IMO, I mean the Nebulon C is the best thing ever.
    And the T-75s are amazing

    The Resistance and the new republic dynamic is super interesting with the parts of the government starting to get somewhat nostalgic to Empire, seing Leia as a warmonger with too much of her father in her. its amazing.

    The context is explained not just via dialogue but also via musical and visual cues (however the Leia and Vader stuff is from Bloodline)
    The First Order is a faction of Imperials who never surrendered who went to hide into the unknown regions. They doubled down on everything the Empire did becoming a nation without culture, without art just a war machine.

    The FO is the Empire without civilian words (while not stated in the movie they have civilians but they are mostly slaves)

    Snoke is basically like Maul, he his the source of most of Kylo's downfall killing him was a important turning point for the lore, Kylo and the conflict in general. it changed the status quo.
    The Evil Apprentice turned on his master, but this time it was it was neither how Palpatine and other Sith did so before, nor how Vader did it to save Luke, he is still stuck between light and dark unable to understand what he wants.

    This is just speculation but given the depth and how everything in the ST so far has meaning I expect Kylo's helmet is linked to Kintsugi

    They have a plan, Palpatine and the general end goal of whats going on has not changed, the journey to reaching that point however has changed. anyway the OT lacked a plan and the PTs got changed all the time and they turned out fine

    Rey is amazing
    She spent all her life on Jakku with nothing, had to fight every day to survive, yet she is vulnerable.
    In TFA she spends half the movie terrified, sweating out of fear, nearly crashes the falcon, gets captured, misses her first blaster shots, nearly looses against Kylo who was bleeding out and mentally unwell.

    In TLJ she spends half the movie in tears, gets letdown by her master only to ultimately learn the price and reward of failure from him, during the throne room fight she is over powered by the guards who would have killed her if it was not for her uneasy alliance with Ren.

    After everything that happened she understands Luke warnings and teaching but Luke finds part of himself in Rey and they learn from each other
    She picks up the torch, but before that Luke has his amazing final stand on Crait.

    So, Rey is not a mary sue. beyond being the complete opposite of one and being one of the leads that suffers the most.

    giphy.gif
    Heroes are born on the battlefront... especially if you play the objective.
    kui7ctmgyzll.png
  • Privata wrote: »
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    I mean everyone knows the quality of movies goes OT > sequels > prequels. Anything else is just opinion.

    I'd beg to differ.
    OT tops it. But as of now, with the two films it had, ST fails :

    - Barely anything brought to the universe and lore, unless you consider black TIE Fighters, blue X-Wings, square-antenna Falcon, and Earth-looking planets a step forward from OT.
    - No context. The rare derivative risks lose all taste as not built properly (Snoke...).
    - No long-term vision : just look at the designs of Rey and Kylo, step back from Ep.8.
    - Mary-Sue hero = No fear for the character = No attachment. Just like Captain Marvel.

    Cinematic and visual qualities don't make it all. Yet I'd be happy to see Ep.9 reversing the trend by providing a lot to the overall Star Wars universe while justifying choices from previous films and providing lacking context.

    The new ships are perfect IMO, I mean the Nebulon C is the best thing ever.
    And the T-75s are amazing

    The Resistance and the new republic dynamic is super interesting with the parts of the government starting to get somewhat nostalgic to Empire, seing Leia as a warmonger with too much of her father in her. its amazing.

    The context is explained not just via dialogue but also via musical and visual cues (however the Leia and Vader stuff is from Bloodline)
    The First Order is a faction of Imperials who never surrendered who went to hide into the unknown regions. They doubled down on everything the Empire did becoming a nation without culture, without art just a war machine.

    The FO is the Empire without civilian words (while not stated in the movie they have civilians but they are mostly slaves)

    Snoke is basically like Maul, he his the source of most of Kylo's downfall killing him was a important turning point for the lore, Kylo and the conflict in general. it changed the status quo.
    The Evil Apprentice turned on his master, but this time it was it was neither how Palpatine and other Sith did so before, nor how Vader did it to save Luke, he is still stuck between light and dark unable to understand what he wants.

    This is just speculation but given the depth and how everything in the ST so far has meaning I expect Kylo's helmet is linked to Kintsugi

    They have a plan, Palpatine and the general end goal of whats going on has not changed, the journey to reaching that point however has changed. anyway the OT lacked a plan and the PTs got changed all the time and they turned out fine

    Rey is amazing
    She spent all her life on Jakku with nothing, had to fight every day to survive, yet she is vulnerable.
    In TFA she spends half the movie terrified, sweating out of fear, nearly crashes the falcon, gets captured, misses her first blaster shots, nearly looses against Kylo who was bleeding out and mentally unwell.

    In TLJ she spends half the movie in tears, gets letdown by her master only to ultimately learn the price and reward of failure from him, during the throne room fight she is over powered by the guards who would have killed her if it was not for her uneasy alliance with Ren.

    After everything that happened she understands Luke warnings and teaching but Luke finds part of himself in Rey and they learn from each other
    She picks up the torch, but before that Luke has his amazing final stand on Crait.

    So, Rey is not a mary sue. beyond being the complete opposite of one and being one of the leads that suffers the most.

    There is a difference to make between ST era and ST films. On their own, without Lucasfilm explanations, novels, etc. the films are not clear enough to even give a glimpse of what you mentionned about Snoke or the cold war. You need the surrounding canon to understand these films, when it is supposed to be the other way around.

    My dislike for the films is not a dislike for the overall "Canon" built around them. That's why I'd take Episode 9 content over more CW despite my personnal tastes.

    Rey the opposite of a Mary-Sue ? A person who gets better at using the force and a lightsaber in one day than a person who spent his life training in these fields is not a Mary-Sue ? Seriously ?
    Even Anakin doesn't show such "marvellous" signs in TPM despite being "The Chosen One".
  • Cane_danko
    1072 posts Member
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    Privata wrote: »
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    I mean everyone knows the quality of movies goes OT > sequels > prequels. Anything else is just opinion.

    I'd beg to differ.
    OT tops it. But as of now, with the two films it had, ST fails :

    - Barely anything brought to the universe and lore, unless you consider black TIE Fighters, blue X-Wings, square-antenna Falcon, and Earth-looking planets a step forward from OT.
    - No context. The rare derivative risks lose all taste as not built properly (Snoke...).
    - No long-term vision : just look at the designs of Rey and Kylo, step back from Ep.8.
    - Mary-Sue hero = No fear for the character = No attachment. Just like Captain Marvel.

    Cinematic and visual qualities don't make it all. Yet I'd be happy to see Ep.9 reversing the trend by providing a lot to the overall Star Wars universe while justifying choices from previous films and providing lacking context.

    The new ships are perfect IMO, I mean the Nebulon C is the best thing ever.
    And the T-75s are amazing

    The Resistance and the new republic dynamic is super interesting with the parts of the government starting to get somewhat nostalgic to Empire, seing Leia as a warmonger with too much of her father in her. its amazing.

    The context is explained not just via dialogue but also via musical and visual cues (however the Leia and Vader stuff is from Bloodline)
    The First Order is a faction of Imperials who never surrendered who went to hide into the unknown regions. They doubled down on everything the Empire did becoming a nation without culture, without art just a war machine.

    The FO is the Empire without civilian words (while not stated in the movie they have civilians but they are mostly slaves)

    Snoke is basically like Maul, he his the source of most of Kylo's downfall killing him was a important turning point for the lore, Kylo and the conflict in general. it changed the status quo.
    The Evil Apprentice turned on his master, but this time it was it was neither how Palpatine and other Sith did so before, nor how Vader did it to save Luke, he is still stuck between light and dark unable to understand what he wants.

    This is just speculation but given the depth and how everything in the ST so far has meaning I expect Kylo's helmet is linked to Kintsugi

    They have a plan, Palpatine and the general end goal of whats going on has not changed, the journey to reaching that point however has changed. anyway the OT lacked a plan and the PTs got changed all the time and they turned out fine

    Rey is amazing
    She spent all her life on Jakku with nothing, had to fight every day to survive, yet she is vulnerable.
    In TFA she spends half the movie terrified, sweating out of fear, nearly crashes the falcon, gets captured, misses her first blaster shots, nearly looses against Kylo who was bleeding out and mentally unwell.

    In TLJ she spends half the movie in tears, gets letdown by her master only to ultimately learn the price and reward of failure from him, during the throne room fight she is over powered by the guards who would have killed her if it was not for her uneasy alliance with Ren.

    After everything that happened she understands Luke warnings and teaching but Luke finds part of himself in Rey and they learn from each other
    She picks up the torch, but before that Luke has his amazing final stand on Crait.

    So, Rey is not a mary sue. beyond being the complete opposite of one and being one of the leads that suffers the most.

    There is a difference to make between ST era and ST films. On their own, without Lucasfilm explanations, novels, etc. the films are not clear enough to even give a glimpse of what you mentionned about Snoke or the cold war. You need the surrounding canon to understand these films, when it is supposed to be the other way around.

    My dislike for the films is not a dislike for the overall "Canon" built around them. That's why I'd take Episode 9 content over more CW despite my personnal tastes.

    Rey the opposite of a Mary-Sue ? A person who gets better at using the force and a lightsaber in one day than a person who spent his life training in these fields is not a Mary-Sue ? Seriously ?
    Even Anakin doesn't show such "marvellous" signs in TPM despite being "The Chosen One".

    Rey’s power comes from being kylo’s opposite in the dark. Her skill in the force is obviously lacking. She never does anything that comes close to anakin’s mastery of the force. She doesn’t even come close to kylo with her technique. Both movies she is told she needs a teacher. Her biggest force feat so far is lifting rocks. While yeah she does learn to tap into the force to help with her melee combat one could argue this is instinctive and just adds to her skill in melee combat which she learned having to survive on jakku. So no, mary sue is a dumb term people use to dismiss her character.
  • TheScape
    2211 posts Member
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    Privata wrote: »
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    I mean everyone knows the quality of movies goes OT > sequels > prequels. Anything else is just opinion.

    I'd beg to differ.
    OT tops it. But as of now, with the two films it had, ST fails :

    - Barely anything brought to the universe and lore, unless you consider black TIE Fighters, blue X-Wings, square-antenna Falcon, and Earth-looking planets a step forward from OT.
    - No context. The rare derivative risks lose all taste as not built properly (Snoke...).
    - No long-term vision : just look at the designs of Rey and Kylo, step back from Ep.8.
    - Mary-Sue hero = No fear for the character = No attachment. Just like Captain Marvel.

    Cinematic and visual qualities don't make it all. Yet I'd be happy to see Ep.9 reversing the trend by providing a lot to the overall Star Wars universe while justifying choices from previous films and providing lacking context.

    The new ships are perfect IMO, I mean the Nebulon C is the best thing ever.
    And the T-75s are amazing

    The Resistance and the new republic dynamic is super interesting with the parts of the government starting to get somewhat nostalgic to Empire, seing Leia as a warmonger with too much of her father in her. its amazing.

    The context is explained not just via dialogue but also via musical and visual cues (however the Leia and Vader stuff is from Bloodline)
    The First Order is a faction of Imperials who never surrendered who went to hide into the unknown regions. They doubled down on everything the Empire did becoming a nation without culture, without art just a war machine.

    The FO is the Empire without civilian words (while not stated in the movie they have civilians but they are mostly slaves)

    Snoke is basically like Maul, he his the source of most of Kylo's downfall killing him was a important turning point for the lore, Kylo and the conflict in general. it changed the status quo.
    The Evil Apprentice turned on his master, but this time it was it was neither how Palpatine and other Sith did so before, nor how Vader did it to save Luke, he is still stuck between light and dark unable to understand what he wants.

    This is just speculation but given the depth and how everything in the ST so far has meaning I expect Kylo's helmet is linked to Kintsugi

    They have a plan, Palpatine and the general end goal of whats going on has not changed, the journey to reaching that point however has changed. anyway the OT lacked a plan and the PTs got changed all the time and they turned out fine

    Rey is amazing
    She spent all her life on Jakku with nothing, had to fight every day to survive, yet she is vulnerable.
    In TFA she spends half the movie terrified, sweating out of fear, nearly crashes the falcon, gets captured, misses her first blaster shots, nearly looses against Kylo who was bleeding out and mentally unwell.

    In TLJ she spends half the movie in tears, gets letdown by her master only to ultimately learn the price and reward of failure from him, during the throne room fight she is over powered by the guards who would have killed her if it was not for her uneasy alliance with Ren.

    After everything that happened she understands Luke warnings and teaching but Luke finds part of himself in Rey and they learn from each other
    She picks up the torch, but before that Luke has his amazing final stand on Crait.

    So, Rey is not a mary sue. beyond being the complete opposite of one and being one of the leads that suffers the most.

    There is a difference to make between ST era and ST films. On their own, without Lucasfilm explanations, novels, etc. the films are not clear enough to even give a glimpse of what you mentionned about Snoke or the cold war. You need the surrounding canon to understand these films, when it is supposed to be the other way around.

    My dislike for the films is not a dislike for the overall "Canon" built around them. That's why I'd take Episode 9 content over more CW despite my personnal tastes.

    Rey the opposite of a Mary-Sue ? A person who gets better at using the force and a lightsaber in one day than a person who spent his life training in these fields is not a Mary-Sue ? Seriously ?
    Even Anakin doesn't show such "marvellous" signs in TPM despite being "The Chosen One".

    If you think about it, Anakin has a lot more development during the TV show than the films. So, it is not the first time that the era's depth comes from outside the movies. That is part of the "magic" of Star Wars. Even if I like the movies (specially the OT), I got hooked to Star Wars thanks to the games, for example.
    May your heart be your guiding key.
  • Cane_danko
    1072 posts Member
    TheScape wrote: »
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    Privata wrote: »
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    I mean everyone knows the quality of movies goes OT > sequels > prequels. Anything else is just opinion.

    I'd beg to differ.
    OT tops it. But as of now, with the two films it had, ST fails :

    - Barely anything brought to the universe and lore, unless you consider black TIE Fighters, blue X-Wings, square-antenna Falcon, and Earth-looking planets a step forward from OT.
    - No context. The rare derivative risks lose all taste as not built properly (Snoke...).
    - No long-term vision : just look at the designs of Rey and Kylo, step back from Ep.8.
    - Mary-Sue hero = No fear for the character = No attachment. Just like Captain Marvel.

    Cinematic and visual qualities don't make it all. Yet I'd be happy to see Ep.9 reversing the trend by providing a lot to the overall Star Wars universe while justifying choices from previous films and providing lacking context.

    The new ships are perfect IMO, I mean the Nebulon C is the best thing ever.
    And the T-75s are amazing

    The Resistance and the new republic dynamic is super interesting with the parts of the government starting to get somewhat nostalgic to Empire, seing Leia as a warmonger with too much of her father in her. its amazing.

    The context is explained not just via dialogue but also via musical and visual cues (however the Leia and Vader stuff is from Bloodline)
    The First Order is a faction of Imperials who never surrendered who went to hide into the unknown regions. They doubled down on everything the Empire did becoming a nation without culture, without art just a war machine.

    The FO is the Empire without civilian words (while not stated in the movie they have civilians but they are mostly slaves)

    Snoke is basically like Maul, he his the source of most of Kylo's downfall killing him was a important turning point for the lore, Kylo and the conflict in general. it changed the status quo.
    The Evil Apprentice turned on his master, but this time it was it was neither how Palpatine and other Sith did so before, nor how Vader did it to save Luke, he is still stuck between light and dark unable to understand what he wants.

    This is just speculation but given the depth and how everything in the ST so far has meaning I expect Kylo's helmet is linked to Kintsugi

    They have a plan, Palpatine and the general end goal of whats going on has not changed, the journey to reaching that point however has changed. anyway the OT lacked a plan and the PTs got changed all the time and they turned out fine

    Rey is amazing
    She spent all her life on Jakku with nothing, had to fight every day to survive, yet she is vulnerable.
    In TFA she spends half the movie terrified, sweating out of fear, nearly crashes the falcon, gets captured, misses her first blaster shots, nearly looses against Kylo who was bleeding out and mentally unwell.

    In TLJ she spends half the movie in tears, gets letdown by her master only to ultimately learn the price and reward of failure from him, during the throne room fight she is over powered by the guards who would have killed her if it was not for her uneasy alliance with Ren.

    After everything that happened she understands Luke warnings and teaching but Luke finds part of himself in Rey and they learn from each other
    She picks up the torch, but before that Luke has his amazing final stand on Crait.

    So, Rey is not a mary sue. beyond being the complete opposite of one and being one of the leads that suffers the most.

    There is a difference to make between ST era and ST films. On their own, without Lucasfilm explanations, novels, etc. the films are not clear enough to even give a glimpse of what you mentionned about Snoke or the cold war. You need the surrounding canon to understand these films, when it is supposed to be the other way around.

    My dislike for the films is not a dislike for the overall "Canon" built around them. That's why I'd take Episode 9 content over more CW despite my personnal tastes.

    Rey the opposite of a Mary-Sue ? A person who gets better at using the force and a lightsaber in one day than a person who spent his life training in these fields is not a Mary-Sue ? Seriously ?
    Even Anakin doesn't show such "marvellous" signs in TPM despite being "The Chosen One".

    If you think about it, Anakin has a lot more development during the TV show than the films. So, it is not the first time that the era's depth comes from outside the movies. That is part of the "magic" of Star Wars. Even if I like the movies (specially the OT), I got hooked to Star Wars thanks to the games, for example.

    Well, i do agree that the sequels should have had better world building in the movies. The prequels are the best star wars movies in this aspect. Because people said too much politics is the reason they stayed away from it i am guessing. The lore behind the sequels is awesome and would have made the movies more coherent in terms of what is going on in the galaxy. The characters are really good in the sequels and i am an advent defender of that.
  • Alex64
    7020 posts Member
    Rey will need new abilities, She is going to be a very powerful Jedi.
  • Cane_danko
    1072 posts Member
    Alex64 wrote: »
    Rey will need new abilities, She is going to be a very powerful Jedi.

    I was also thinking it would be cool if rey and kylo get ultimates when 9 comes out. Not holding my breath though.
  • TheScape
    2211 posts Member
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    TheScape wrote: »
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    Privata wrote: »
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    I mean everyone knows the quality of movies goes OT > sequels > prequels. Anything else is just opinion.

    I'd beg to differ.
    OT tops it. But as of now, with the two films it had, ST fails :

    - Barely anything brought to the universe and lore, unless you consider black TIE Fighters, blue X-Wings, square-antenna Falcon, and Earth-looking planets a step forward from OT.
    - No context. The rare derivative risks lose all taste as not built properly (Snoke...).
    - No long-term vision : just look at the designs of Rey and Kylo, step back from Ep.8.
    - Mary-Sue hero = No fear for the character = No attachment. Just like Captain Marvel.

    Cinematic and visual qualities don't make it all. Yet I'd be happy to see Ep.9 reversing the trend by providing a lot to the overall Star Wars universe while justifying choices from previous films and providing lacking context.

    The new ships are perfect IMO, I mean the Nebulon C is the best thing ever.
    And the T-75s are amazing

    The Resistance and the new republic dynamic is super interesting with the parts of the government starting to get somewhat nostalgic to Empire, seing Leia as a warmonger with too much of her father in her. its amazing.

    The context is explained not just via dialogue but also via musical and visual cues (however the Leia and Vader stuff is from Bloodline)
    The First Order is a faction of Imperials who never surrendered who went to hide into the unknown regions. They doubled down on everything the Empire did becoming a nation without culture, without art just a war machine.

    The FO is the Empire without civilian words (while not stated in the movie they have civilians but they are mostly slaves)

    Snoke is basically like Maul, he his the source of most of Kylo's downfall killing him was a important turning point for the lore, Kylo and the conflict in general. it changed the status quo.
    The Evil Apprentice turned on his master, but this time it was it was neither how Palpatine and other Sith did so before, nor how Vader did it to save Luke, he is still stuck between light and dark unable to understand what he wants.

    This is just speculation but given the depth and how everything in the ST so far has meaning I expect Kylo's helmet is linked to Kintsugi

    They have a plan, Palpatine and the general end goal of whats going on has not changed, the journey to reaching that point however has changed. anyway the OT lacked a plan and the PTs got changed all the time and they turned out fine

    Rey is amazing
    She spent all her life on Jakku with nothing, had to fight every day to survive, yet she is vulnerable.
    In TFA she spends half the movie terrified, sweating out of fear, nearly crashes the falcon, gets captured, misses her first blaster shots, nearly looses against Kylo who was bleeding out and mentally unwell.

    In TLJ she spends half the movie in tears, gets letdown by her master only to ultimately learn the price and reward of failure from him, during the throne room fight she is over powered by the guards who would have killed her if it was not for her uneasy alliance with Ren.

    After everything that happened she understands Luke warnings and teaching but Luke finds part of himself in Rey and they learn from each other
    She picks up the torch, but before that Luke has his amazing final stand on Crait.

    So, Rey is not a mary sue. beyond being the complete opposite of one and being one of the leads that suffers the most.

    There is a difference to make between ST era and ST films. On their own, without Lucasfilm explanations, novels, etc. the films are not clear enough to even give a glimpse of what you mentionned about Snoke or the cold war. You need the surrounding canon to understand these films, when it is supposed to be the other way around.

    My dislike for the films is not a dislike for the overall "Canon" built around them. That's why I'd take Episode 9 content over more CW despite my personnal tastes.

    Rey the opposite of a Mary-Sue ? A person who gets better at using the force and a lightsaber in one day than a person who spent his life training in these fields is not a Mary-Sue ? Seriously ?
    Even Anakin doesn't show such "marvellous" signs in TPM despite being "The Chosen One".

    If you think about it, Anakin has a lot more development during the TV show than the films. So, it is not the first time that the era's depth comes from outside the movies. That is part of the "magic" of Star Wars. Even if I like the movies (specially the OT), I got hooked to Star Wars thanks to the games, for example.

    Well, i do agree that the sequels should have had better world building in the movies. The prequels are the best star wars movies in this aspect. Because people said too much politics is the reason they stayed away from it i am guessing. The lore behind the sequels is awesome and would have made the movies more coherent in terms of what is going on in the galaxy. The characters are really good in the sequels and i am an advent defender of that.

    I agree, too. The way Battlefront's campaign gives a lot more insight on what the First Order is after two movies it's weird. Don't get me wrong, I like the fact that Iden's campaign expands the lore, but why didn't we get something more during TFA? The same goes for the novels, comics and the Resistance show. Or the fact that the cold war era ends at the beginning of TFA. I understand that they are trying to develop the characters with the new movies instead of doing some world building, but it wouldn't hurt to have both.

    What I meant with my comment is that both the OT and PT were vastly expanded using either canon material or the old EU (now legends). That is what made a lot of people invested in the universe, even if they loved the movies, too. Think about Maul or Grievous. They are basically wasted on the movies, but they get their background and lore during the TV show. To some extent, that is also the case of Count Dooku.
    May your heart be your guiding key.
  • Cane_danko wrote: »
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    Privata wrote: »
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    I mean everyone knows the quality of movies goes OT > sequels > prequels. Anything else is just opinion.

    I'd beg to differ.
    OT tops it. But as of now, with the two films it had, ST fails :

    - Barely anything brought to the universe and lore, unless you consider black TIE Fighters, blue X-Wings, square-antenna Falcon, and Earth-looking planets a step forward from OT.
    - No context. The rare derivative risks lose all taste as not built properly (Snoke...).
    - No long-term vision : just look at the designs of Rey and Kylo, step back from Ep.8.
    - Mary-Sue hero = No fear for the character = No attachment. Just like Captain Marvel.

    Cinematic and visual qualities don't make it all. Yet I'd be happy to see Ep.9 reversing the trend by providing a lot to the overall Star Wars universe while justifying choices from previous films and providing lacking context.

    The new ships are perfect IMO, I mean the Nebulon C is the best thing ever.
    And the T-75s are amazing

    The Resistance and the new republic dynamic is super interesting with the parts of the government starting to get somewhat nostalgic to Empire, seing Leia as a warmonger with too much of her father in her. its amazing.

    The context is explained not just via dialogue but also via musical and visual cues (however the Leia and Vader stuff is from Bloodline)
    The First Order is a faction of Imperials who never surrendered who went to hide into the unknown regions. They doubled down on everything the Empire did becoming a nation without culture, without art just a war machine.

    The FO is the Empire without civilian words (while not stated in the movie they have civilians but they are mostly slaves)

    Snoke is basically like Maul, he his the source of most of Kylo's downfall killing him was a important turning point for the lore, Kylo and the conflict in general. it changed the status quo.
    The Evil Apprentice turned on his master, but this time it was it was neither how Palpatine and other Sith did so before, nor how Vader did it to save Luke, he is still stuck between light and dark unable to understand what he wants.

    This is just speculation but given the depth and how everything in the ST so far has meaning I expect Kylo's helmet is linked to Kintsugi

    They have a plan, Palpatine and the general end goal of whats going on has not changed, the journey to reaching that point however has changed. anyway the OT lacked a plan and the PTs got changed all the time and they turned out fine

    Rey is amazing
    She spent all her life on Jakku with nothing, had to fight every day to survive, yet she is vulnerable.
    In TFA she spends half the movie terrified, sweating out of fear, nearly crashes the falcon, gets captured, misses her first blaster shots, nearly looses against Kylo who was bleeding out and mentally unwell.

    In TLJ she spends half the movie in tears, gets letdown by her master only to ultimately learn the price and reward of failure from him, during the throne room fight she is over powered by the guards who would have killed her if it was not for her uneasy alliance with Ren.

    After everything that happened she understands Luke warnings and teaching but Luke finds part of himself in Rey and they learn from each other
    She picks up the torch, but before that Luke has his amazing final stand on Crait.

    So, Rey is not a mary sue. beyond being the complete opposite of one and being one of the leads that suffers the most.

    There is a difference to make between ST era and ST films. On their own, without Lucasfilm explanations, novels, etc. the films are not clear enough to even give a glimpse of what you mentionned about Snoke or the cold war. You need the surrounding canon to understand these films, when it is supposed to be the other way around.

    My dislike for the films is not a dislike for the overall "Canon" built around them. That's why I'd take Episode 9 content over more CW despite my personnal tastes.

    Rey the opposite of a Mary-Sue ? A person who gets better at using the force and a lightsaber in one day than a person who spent his life training in these fields is not a Mary-Sue ? Seriously ?
    Even Anakin doesn't show such "marvellous" signs in TPM despite being "The Chosen One".

    Rey’s power comes from being kylo’s opposite in the dark. Her skill in the force is obviously lacking. She never does anything that comes close to anakin’s mastery of the force. She doesn’t even come close to kylo with her technique. Both movies she is told she needs a teacher. Her biggest force feat so far is lifting rocks. While yeah she does learn to tap into the force to help with her melee combat one could argue this is instinctive and just adds to her skill in melee combat which she learned having to survive on jakku. So no, mary sue is a dumb term people use to dismiss her character.

    I don't dismiss her strength of character or personnality. I dismiss her strength in the force.

    I enjoy in terms of scenario the concept of duality with the force to get balance. Unfortunately, the result here is giving us a main character with plot armor. Whatever the reason, in the end she's strong "just because". Since when are plot-armored characters supposed to make us feel close to them ?

    Like the word or not, there is a definition for strong plot-armored characters : Mary-Sue.
  • SnakeMajin
    302 posts Member
    edited June 29
    TheScape wrote: »
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    Privata wrote: »
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    I mean everyone knows the quality of movies goes OT > sequels > prequels. Anything else is just opinion.

    I'd beg to differ.
    OT tops it. But as of now, with the two films it had, ST fails :

    - Barely anything brought to the universe and lore, unless you consider black TIE Fighters, blue X-Wings, square-antenna Falcon, and Earth-looking planets a step forward from OT.
    - No context. The rare derivative risks lose all taste as not built properly (Snoke...).
    - No long-term vision : just look at the designs of Rey and Kylo, step back from Ep.8.
    - Mary-Sue hero = No fear for the character = No attachment. Just like Captain Marvel.

    Cinematic and visual qualities don't make it all. Yet I'd be happy to see Ep.9 reversing the trend by providing a lot to the overall Star Wars universe while justifying choices from previous films and providing lacking context.

    The new ships are perfect IMO, I mean the Nebulon C is the best thing ever.
    And the T-75s are amazing

    The Resistance and the new republic dynamic is super interesting with the parts of the government starting to get somewhat nostalgic to Empire, seing Leia as a warmonger with too much of her father in her. its amazing.

    The context is explained not just via dialogue but also via musical and visual cues (however the Leia and Vader stuff is from Bloodline)
    The First Order is a faction of Imperials who never surrendered who went to hide into the unknown regions. They doubled down on everything the Empire did becoming a nation without culture, without art just a war machine.

    The FO is the Empire without civilian words (while not stated in the movie they have civilians but they are mostly slaves)

    Snoke is basically like Maul, he his the source of most of Kylo's downfall killing him was a important turning point for the lore, Kylo and the conflict in general. it changed the status quo.
    The Evil Apprentice turned on his master, but this time it was it was neither how Palpatine and other Sith did so before, nor how Vader did it to save Luke, he is still stuck between light and dark unable to understand what he wants.

    This is just speculation but given the depth and how everything in the ST so far has meaning I expect Kylo's helmet is linked to Kintsugi

    They have a plan, Palpatine and the general end goal of whats going on has not changed, the journey to reaching that point however has changed. anyway the OT lacked a plan and the PTs got changed all the time and they turned out fine

    Rey is amazing
    She spent all her life on Jakku with nothing, had to fight every day to survive, yet she is vulnerable.
    In TFA she spends half the movie terrified, sweating out of fear, nearly crashes the falcon, gets captured, misses her first blaster shots, nearly looses against Kylo who was bleeding out and mentally unwell.

    In TLJ she spends half the movie in tears, gets letdown by her master only to ultimately learn the price and reward of failure from him, during the throne room fight she is over powered by the guards who would have killed her if it was not for her uneasy alliance with Ren.

    After everything that happened she understands Luke warnings and teaching but Luke finds part of himself in Rey and they learn from each other
    She picks up the torch, but before that Luke has his amazing final stand on Crait.

    So, Rey is not a mary sue. beyond being the complete opposite of one and being one of the leads that suffers the most.

    There is a difference to make between ST era and ST films. On their own, without Lucasfilm explanations, novels, etc. the films are not clear enough to even give a glimpse of what you mentionned about Snoke or the cold war. You need the surrounding canon to understand these films, when it is supposed to be the other way around.

    My dislike for the films is not a dislike for the overall "Canon" built around them. That's why I'd take Episode 9 content over more CW despite my personnal tastes.

    Rey the opposite of a Mary-Sue ? A person who gets better at using the force and a lightsaber in one day than a person who spent his life training in these fields is not a Mary-Sue ? Seriously ?
    Even Anakin doesn't show such "marvellous" signs in TPM despite being "The Chosen One".

    If you think about it, Anakin has a lot more development during the TV show than the films. So, it is not the first time that the era's depth comes from outside the movies. That is part of the "magic" of Star Wars. Even if I like the movies (specially the OT), I got hooked to Star Wars thanks to the games, for example.

    I see quite a difference.

    Anakin's fall is executed far too quickly. TCW does build a lot his fall. But there is enough material in Ep.3 to at least understand what is going on. It just feels too fast.

    In ST films, things are thrown at us all over the place. No time for explanations. "Just because".
  • Cane_danko
    1072 posts Member
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    Privata wrote: »
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    I mean everyone knows the quality of movies goes OT > sequels > prequels. Anything else is just opinion.

    I'd beg to differ.
    OT tops it. But as of now, with the two films it had, ST fails :

    - Barely anything brought to the universe and lore, unless you consider black TIE Fighters, blue X-Wings, square-antenna Falcon, and Earth-looking planets a step forward from OT.
    - No context. The rare derivative risks lose all taste as not built properly (Snoke...).
    - No long-term vision : just look at the designs of Rey and Kylo, step back from Ep.8.
    - Mary-Sue hero = No fear for the character = No attachment. Just like Captain Marvel.

    Cinematic and visual qualities don't make it all. Yet I'd be happy to see Ep.9 reversing the trend by providing a lot to the overall Star Wars universe while justifying choices from previous films and providing lacking context.

    The new ships are perfect IMO, I mean the Nebulon C is the best thing ever.
    And the T-75s are amazing

    The Resistance and the new republic dynamic is super interesting with the parts of the government starting to get somewhat nostalgic to Empire, seing Leia as a warmonger with too much of her father in her. its amazing.

    The context is explained not just via dialogue but also via musical and visual cues (however the Leia and Vader stuff is from Bloodline)
    The First Order is a faction of Imperials who never surrendered who went to hide into the unknown regions. They doubled down on everything the Empire did becoming a nation without culture, without art just a war machine.

    The FO is the Empire without civilian words (while not stated in the movie they have civilians but they are mostly slaves)

    Snoke is basically like Maul, he his the source of most of Kylo's downfall killing him was a important turning point for the lore, Kylo and the conflict in general. it changed the status quo.
    The Evil Apprentice turned on his master, but this time it was it was neither how Palpatine and other Sith did so before, nor how Vader did it to save Luke, he is still stuck between light and dark unable to understand what he wants.

    This is just speculation but given the depth and how everything in the ST so far has meaning I expect Kylo's helmet is linked to Kintsugi

    They have a plan, Palpatine and the general end goal of whats going on has not changed, the journey to reaching that point however has changed. anyway the OT lacked a plan and the PTs got changed all the time and they turned out fine

    Rey is amazing
    She spent all her life on Jakku with nothing, had to fight every day to survive, yet she is vulnerable.
    In TFA she spends half the movie terrified, sweating out of fear, nearly crashes the falcon, gets captured, misses her first blaster shots, nearly looses against Kylo who was bleeding out and mentally unwell.

    In TLJ she spends half the movie in tears, gets letdown by her master only to ultimately learn the price and reward of failure from him, during the throne room fight she is over powered by the guards who would have killed her if it was not for her uneasy alliance with Ren.

    After everything that happened she understands Luke warnings and teaching but Luke finds part of himself in Rey and they learn from each other
    She picks up the torch, but before that Luke has his amazing final stand on Crait.

    So, Rey is not a mary sue. beyond being the complete opposite of one and being one of the leads that suffers the most.

    There is a difference to make between ST era and ST films. On their own, without Lucasfilm explanations, novels, etc. the films are not clear enough to even give a glimpse of what you mentionned about Snoke or the cold war. You need the surrounding canon to understand these films, when it is supposed to be the other way around.

    My dislike for the films is not a dislike for the overall "Canon" built around them. That's why I'd take Episode 9 content over more CW despite my personnal tastes.

    Rey the opposite of a Mary-Sue ? A person who gets better at using the force and a lightsaber in one day than a person who spent his life training in these fields is not a Mary-Sue ? Seriously ?
    Even Anakin doesn't show such "marvellous" signs in TPM despite being "The Chosen One".

    Rey’s power comes from being kylo’s opposite in the dark. Her skill in the force is obviously lacking. She never does anything that comes close to anakin’s mastery of the force. She doesn’t even come close to kylo with her technique. Both movies she is told she needs a teacher. Her biggest force feat so far is lifting rocks. While yeah she does learn to tap into the force to help with her melee combat one could argue this is instinctive and just adds to her skill in melee combat which she learned having to survive on jakku. So no, mary sue is a dumb term people use to dismiss her character.

    I don't dismiss her strength of character or personnality. I dismiss her strength in the force.

    I enjoy in terms of scenario the concept of duality with the force to get balance. Unfortunately, the result here is giving us a main character with plot armor. Whatever the reason, in the end she's strong "just because". Since when are plot-armored characters supposed to make us feel close to them ?

    Like the word or not, there is a definition for strong plot-armored characters : Mary-Sue.

    Again, her strength is only potential. I don’t get what is wrong with that. Anakin would have destroyed snoke and the praetorian by himself. As far as plot armor i have no idea where this comes into play. Was kylo saving her instead of killing her plot armor? No. He needed her to help him fend off the praetorian (because he too is weaker than anakin and he knew that). Or are we referring to how she beat kylo in the force awakens which is where people jumped on this mary sue train? Because kylo underestimated her. He toyed with her to show that he was superior and he payed the price. Jango beat obiwan on kamino without the use of the force. Was that plot armor? Or could it be he was skilled and knew enough about jedi to beat him. These are the problems i have with people’s criticisms about the sequels. They don’t make any sense and just serve to dismiss the new characters for whatever reason. Maybe people thought disney was suppose to bottle up their childhood feelings they had from watching the old movies and did not realize that the older films had flaws too.
  • JadeRaptor64
    1667 posts Member
    edited June 29
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    Rey’s power comes from being kylo’s opposite in the dark. Her skill in the force is obviously lacking. She never does anything that comes close to anakin’s mastery of the force. She doesn’t even come close to kylo with her technique. Both movies she is told she needs a teacher. Her biggest force feat so far is lifting rocks. While yeah she does learn to tap into the force to help with her melee combat one could argue this is instinctive and just adds to her skill in melee combat which she learned having to survive on jakku. So no, mary sue is a dumb term people use to dismiss her character.

    "Rey's power comes from being Kylo's opposite in the dark."

    giphy.gif
    Allow me to elaborate. The Force is not a Ying Yang of light and dark. The "light side" is the Force. The Jedi follow the will of the Force and seek to fulfill it to the best of their ability. The "dark side" is a corruption of the Force that results when one is selfish instead of selfless and twists the Force to serve their own will instead of serving the will of the Force. The Force is not a ying yang that balances itself with equal portions of light and dark. The dark side is unnatural and harmful. If the Force just balanced its power levels like it supposedly does, then Luke should've been the most powerful Jedi ever after Yoda and Obi-Wan died. To summarize, that's not how the Force works.

    "Her biggest force feat so far is lifting rocks."

    Hmm...
    cm8wdu635hvk.png
    No... she's not overpowered at all... totally not a Mary Sue.
    Also, just lifting rocks. More like lifting several tons of boulders.

    "So no, Mary Sue is a 'dumb' term people use to dismiss her character."
    *deep breath*

    Argue against this. She fits the term, like it or not.

    Also, just in case you try and use the "Luke/Anakin is a Mary Sue too" argument behold:

    Let's compare the three, shall we?
    Anakin: Trained from a young age in a time when the Jedi were prosperous. He most likely had multiple trained Jedi teachers as a child, in addition to being Obi Wan’s padawan. On top of that, Anakin was literally the Chosen One. Of course he was powerful. Anakin is also defeated by Count Dooku, resulting in him losing most of one of his arms and later by Obi-Wan, which results in the loss of more limbs.

    Luke: Before training, his only skill is his piloting abilities. Other than that, he's practically dead weight on the Death Star, barely even able to shoot a blaster. Later he was trained by Obi Wan and Yoda, two of the most powerful Jedi. Got his butt kicked by Vader, proving him not to be perfect, and needed to be saved by his friends. He also lost a hand in this duel. Luke couldn’t beat the Emperor on his own, in fact, he needed help from Vader to do that.

    Rey: Learns the Force exists and, in the span of one day, is able to use it to grab objects/preform mind tricks. She is able to outmaneuver Kylo when he attempts to get Luke’s location out of her, turning his Force mind reading back at him. In her first battle with Kylo, Rey defeats and almost manages to kill him. (Yes, I know he was injured. I don't care. Those who use the darkside draw strength and power from pain, so why wasn't he stronger?) Then in TLJ, which takes place less than a week after TFA, Rey holds her own against Snoke’s elite guards(Yes, there was a team up, but Rey still beats the guards. Highly trained fighters are beaten by a former scavenger that's been using a lightsaber for a few days. Explain.{Also, fighting with a staff is not the same thing as fighting with a sword of light that has a weightless blade that can cut through anything. Skill with one does not necessarily equate to skill with the other.})

    See what I mean when comparing these three. Compared to Anakin, and even Luke, Rey doesn’t have nearly as much training or experience. Yet, she manages to out outperform them. In both showdowns with the main Sith Lords of their movie’s, both Anakin and Luke lose an arm/hand. With Rey, she not only defeats Kylo, but almost manages to kill him with no injuries whatsoever. So, there is a clear difference that separates her from the other two, which invalidates the “Luke and Anakin are also Mary Sue's argument”

    I could go on ad infinitum about The Last Jedi and the many problems in it, but to do so would most likely overtake this thread. So I won't.


    Also, OT before ST as the OT is vastly superior, both in quality of content and in quantity.
    Heroes are born on the battlefront... especially if you play the objective.
    kui7ctmgyzll.png
  • Cane_danko
    1072 posts Member
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    Rey’s power comes from being kylo’s opposite in the dark. Her skill in the force is obviously lacking. She never does anything that comes close to anakin’s mastery of the force. She doesn’t even come close to kylo with her technique. Both movies she is told she needs a teacher. Her biggest force feat so far is lifting rocks. While yeah she does learn to tap into the force to help with her melee combat one could argue this is instinctive and just adds to her skill in melee combat which she learned having to survive on jakku. So no, mary sue is a dumb term people use to dismiss her character.

    "Rey's power comes from being Kylo's opposite in the dark."

    giphy.gif
    Allow me to elaborate. The Force is not a Ying Yang of light and dark. The "light side" is the Force. The Jedi follow the will of the Force and seek to fulfill it to the best of their ability. The "dark side" is a corruption of the Force that results when one is selfish instead of selfless and twists the Force to serve their own will instead of serving the will of the Force. The Force is not a ying yang that balances itself with equal portions of light and dark. The dark side is unnatural and harmful. If the Force just balanced its power levels like it supposedly does, then Luke should've been the most powerful Jedi ever after Yoda and Obi-Wan died. To summarize, that's not how the Force works.

    "Her biggest force feat so far is lifting rocks."

    Hmm...
    cm8wdu635hvk.png
    No... she's not overpowered at all... totally not a Mary Sue.
    Also, just lifting rocks. More like lifting several tons of boulders.

    "So no, Mary Sue is a 'dumb' term people use to dismiss her character."
    *deep breath*

    Argue against this.

    Also, just in case you try and use the "Luke/Anakin is a Mary Sue too" argument behold:

    Let's compare the three, shall we?
    Anakin: Trained from a young age in a time when the Jedi were prosperous. He most likely had multiple trained Jedi teachers as a child, in addition to being Obi Wan’s padawan. On top of that, Anakin was literally the Chosen One. Of course he was powerful. Anakin is also defeated by Count Dooku, resulting in him losing most of one of his arms and later by Obi-Wan, which results in the loss of more limbs.

    Luke: Before training, his only skill is his piloting abilities. Other than that, he's practically dead weight on the Death Star, barely even able to shoot a blaster. Later he was trained by Obi Wan and Yoda, two of the most powerful Jedi. Got his butt kicked by Vader, proving him not to be perfect, and needed to be saved by his friends. He also lost a hand in this duel. Luke couldn’t beat the Emperor on his own, in fact, he needed help from Vader to do that.

    Rey: Learns the Force exists and, in the span of one day, is able to use it to grab objects/preform mind tricks. She is able to outmaneuver Kylo when he attempts to get Luke’s location out of her, turning his Force mind reading back at him. In her first battle with Kylo, Rey defeats and almost manages to kill him. (Yes, I know he was injured. I don't care. Those who use the darkside draw strength and power from pain, so why wasn't he stronger?) Then in TLJ, which takes place less than a week after TFA, Rey holds her own against Snoke’s elite guards(Yes, there was a team up, but Rey still beats the guards. Highly trained fighters are beaten by a former scavenger that's been using a lightsaber for a few days. Explain.{Also, fighting with a staff is not the same thing as fighting with a sword of light that has a weightless blade that can cut through anything. Skill with one does not necessarily equate to skill with the other.})

    See what I mean when comparing these three. Compared to Anakin, and even Luke, Rey doesn’t have nearly as much training or experience. Yet, she manages to out outperform them. In both showdowns with the main Sith Lords of their movie’s, both Anakin and Luke lose an arm/hand. With Rey, she not only defeats Kylo, but almost manages to kill him with no injuries whatsoever. So, there is a clear difference that separates her from the other two, which invalidates the “Luke and Anakin are also Mary Sue's argument”

    I could go on ad infinitum about The Last Jedi and the many problems in it, but to do so would most likely overtake this thread. So I won't.


    Also, OT before ST as the OT is vastly superior, both in quality of content and in quantity.

    Yeah i never said luke and anakin are mary sue. I don’t use the term mary sue unless i am repeating it because i think it is a stupid term. As far as yods using all his strength to lift the pillars? How do you know. He closed his eyes so you assume that it takes all his strength? It could be he was focusing and using a fraction of the power.
    The force is not yin yang? Ummm ok. The force has been only loosely explained in the movies. It is what the writers want it to be. If you are talking about the eu force it has no place in the sequels and it is for reasons like this.
    These are all expectations you have of how these movies should work and because they don’t follow the script of the eu you want to arbitrate why things don’t make sense.
    I already mentioned why she beat kylo so trying to go over that again is an exercise in futility.
  • Cane_danko wrote: »
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    Rey’s power comes from being kylo’s opposite in the dark. Her skill in the force is obviously lacking. She never does anything that comes close to anakin’s mastery of the force. She doesn’t even come close to kylo with her technique. Both movies she is told she needs a teacher. Her biggest force feat so far is lifting rocks. While yeah she does learn to tap into the force to help with her melee combat one could argue this is instinctive and just adds to her skill in melee combat which she learned having to survive on jakku. So no, mary sue is a dumb term people use to dismiss her character.

    "Rey's power comes from being Kylo's opposite in the dark."

    giphy.gif
    Allow me to elaborate. The Force is not a Ying Yang of light and dark. The "light side" is the Force. The Jedi follow the will of the Force and seek to fulfill it to the best of their ability. The "dark side" is a corruption of the Force that results when one is selfish instead of selfless and twists the Force to serve their own will instead of serving the will of the Force. The Force is not a ying yang that balances itself with equal portions of light and dark. The dark side is unnatural and harmful. If the Force just balanced its power levels like it supposedly does, then Luke should've been the most powerful Jedi ever after Yoda and Obi-Wan died. To summarize, that's not how the Force works.

    "Her biggest force feat so far is lifting rocks."

    Hmm...
    cm8wdu635hvk.png
    No... she's not overpowered at all... totally not a Mary Sue.
    Also, just lifting rocks. More like lifting several tons of boulders.

    "So no, Mary Sue is a 'dumb' term people use to dismiss her character."
    *deep breath*

    Argue against this.

    Also, just in case you try and use the "Luke/Anakin is a Mary Sue too" argument behold:

    Let's compare the three, shall we?
    Anakin: Trained from a young age in a time when the Jedi were prosperous. He most likely had multiple trained Jedi teachers as a child, in addition to being Obi Wan’s padawan. On top of that, Anakin was literally the Chosen One. Of course he was powerful. Anakin is also defeated by Count Dooku, resulting in him losing most of one of his arms and later by Obi-Wan, which results in the loss of more limbs.

    Luke: Before training, his only skill is his piloting abilities. Other than that, he's practically dead weight on the Death Star, barely even able to shoot a blaster. Later he was trained by Obi Wan and Yoda, two of the most powerful Jedi. Got his butt kicked by Vader, proving him not to be perfect, and needed to be saved by his friends. He also lost a hand in this duel. Luke couldn’t beat the Emperor on his own, in fact, he needed help from Vader to do that.

    Rey: Learns the Force exists and, in the span of one day, is able to use it to grab objects/preform mind tricks. She is able to outmaneuver Kylo when he attempts to get Luke’s location out of her, turning his Force mind reading back at him. In her first battle with Kylo, Rey defeats and almost manages to kill him. (Yes, I know he was injured. I don't care. Those who use the darkside draw strength and power from pain, so why wasn't he stronger?) Then in TLJ, which takes place less than a week after TFA, Rey holds her own against Snoke’s elite guards(Yes, there was a team up, but Rey still beats the guards. Highly trained fighters are beaten by a former scavenger that's been using a lightsaber for a few days. Explain.{Also, fighting with a staff is not the same thing as fighting with a sword of light that has a weightless blade that can cut through anything. Skill with one does not necessarily equate to skill with the other.})

    See what I mean when comparing these three. Compared to Anakin, and even Luke, Rey doesn’t have nearly as much training or experience. Yet, she manages to out outperform them. In both showdowns with the main Sith Lords of their movie’s, both Anakin and Luke lose an arm/hand. With Rey, she not only defeats Kylo, but almost manages to kill him with no injuries whatsoever. So, there is a clear difference that separates her from the other two, which invalidates the “Luke and Anakin are also Mary Sue's argument”

    I could go on ad infinitum about The Last Jedi and the many problems in it, but to do so would most likely overtake this thread. So I won't.


    Also, OT before ST as the OT is vastly superior, both in quality of content and in quantity.

    Yeah i never said luke and anakin are mary sue. I don’t use the term mary sue unless i am repeating it because i think it is a stupid term. As far as yods using all his strength to lift the pillars? How do you know. He closed his eyes so you assume that it takes all his strength? It could be he was focusing and using a fraction of the power.
    The force is not yin yang? Ummm ok. The force has been only loosely explained in the movies. It is what the writers want it to be. If you are talking about the eu force it has no place in the sequels and it is for reasons like this.
    These are all expectations you have of how these movies should work and because they don’t follow the script of the eu you want to arbitrate why things don’t make sense.
    I already mentioned why she beat kylo so trying to go over that again is an exercise in futility.


    2:24

    Looks like he's pretty strained when he's lifting that pillar. A significant portion of his strength was used to lift it.

    Also, the Force is not "just whatever the writers want it to be" If that was the case, the Force could be used to turn porgs into giant monsters. The Force has rules and a mythology and set of boundaries.

    Also, the current way the Force is described in the ST does not make as much sense as the one in the Expanded Universe. I will gladly take the one that makes more sense and doesn't turn the Force into yet another boring Ying Yang sort of thing seen in countless other forms of media. Also, if something in Legends isn't contradicted in "Canon" it's still valid. Also, the earlier example with Luke's lacking powerjump, if that's the way the force works, has yet to be spoken against.

    Also, like it or not, the term Mary Sue is not stupid, or sexist, or whatever words you want to use to dismiss the term because you don't like it. Mary Sue is a perfectly valid literary term just like Deus Ex Machina, Chekhov's Gun, Red Herring, and others. I could use the longer version of the term, "poorly written, overpowered character" but why do that when such a term exists? Calling the term stupid just deflects the valid criticism.
    Heroes are born on the battlefront... especially if you play the objective.
    kui7ctmgyzll.png
  • TheScape wrote: »
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    TheScape wrote: »
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    Privata wrote: »
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    I mean everyone knows the quality of movies goes OT > sequels > prequels. Anything else is just opinion.

    I'd beg to differ.
    OT tops it. But as of now, with the two films it had, ST fails :

    - Barely anything brought to the universe and lore, unless you consider black TIE Fighters, blue X-Wings, square-antenna Falcon, and Earth-looking planets a step forward from OT.
    - No context. The rare derivative risks lose all taste as not built properly (Snoke...).
    - No long-term vision : just look at the designs of Rey and Kylo, step back from Ep.8.
    - Mary-Sue hero = No fear for the character = No attachment. Just like Captain Marvel.

    Cinematic and visual qualities don't make it all. Yet I'd be happy to see Ep.9 reversing the trend by providing a lot to the overall Star Wars universe while justifying choices from previous films and providing lacking context.

    The new ships are perfect IMO, I mean the Nebulon C is the best thing ever.
    And the T-75s are amazing

    The Resistance and the new republic dynamic is super interesting with the parts of the government starting to get somewhat nostalgic to Empire, seing Leia as a warmonger with too much of her father in her. its amazing.

    The context is explained not just via dialogue but also via musical and visual cues (however the Leia and Vader stuff is from Bloodline)
    The First Order is a faction of Imperials who never surrendered who went to hide into the unknown regions. They doubled down on everything the Empire did becoming a nation without culture, without art just a war machine.

    The FO is the Empire without civilian words (while not stated in the movie they have civilians but they are mostly slaves)

    Snoke is basically like Maul, he his the source of most of Kylo's downfall killing him was a important turning point for the lore, Kylo and the conflict in general. it changed the status quo.
    The Evil Apprentice turned on his master, but this time it was it was neither how Palpatine and other Sith did so before, nor how Vader did it to save Luke, he is still stuck between light and dark unable to understand what he wants.

    This is just speculation but given the depth and how everything in the ST so far has meaning I expect Kylo's helmet is linked to Kintsugi

    They have a plan, Palpatine and the general end goal of whats going on has not changed, the journey to reaching that point however has changed. anyway the OT lacked a plan and the PTs got changed all the time and they turned out fine

    Rey is amazing
    She spent all her life on Jakku with nothing, had to fight every day to survive, yet she is vulnerable.
    In TFA she spends half the movie terrified, sweating out of fear, nearly crashes the falcon, gets captured, misses her first blaster shots, nearly looses against Kylo who was bleeding out and mentally unwell.

    In TLJ she spends half the movie in tears, gets letdown by her master only to ultimately learn the price and reward of failure from him, during the throne room fight she is over powered by the guards who would have killed her if it was not for her uneasy alliance with Ren.

    After everything that happened she understands Luke warnings and teaching but Luke finds part of himself in Rey and they learn from each other
    She picks up the torch, but before that Luke has his amazing final stand on Crait.

    So, Rey is not a mary sue. beyond being the complete opposite of one and being one of the leads that suffers the most.

    There is a difference to make between ST era and ST films. On their own, without Lucasfilm explanations, novels, etc. the films are not clear enough to even give a glimpse of what you mentionned about Snoke or the cold war. You need the surrounding canon to understand these films, when it is supposed to be the other way around.

    My dislike for the films is not a dislike for the overall "Canon" built around them. That's why I'd take Episode 9 content over more CW despite my personnal tastes.

    Rey the opposite of a Mary-Sue ? A person who gets better at using the force and a lightsaber in one day than a person who spent his life training in these fields is not a Mary-Sue ? Seriously ?
    Even Anakin doesn't show such "marvellous" signs in TPM despite being "The Chosen One".

    If you think about it, Anakin has a lot more development during the TV show than the films. So, it is not the first time that the era's depth comes from outside the movies. That is part of the "magic" of Star Wars. Even if I like the movies (specially the OT), I got hooked to Star Wars thanks to the games, for example.

    Well, i do agree that the sequels should have had better world building in the movies. The prequels are the best star wars movies in this aspect. Because people said too much politics is the reason they stayed away from it i am guessing. The lore behind the sequels is awesome and would have made the movies more coherent in terms of what is going on in the galaxy. The characters are really good in the sequels and i am an advent defender of that.

    I agree, too. The way Battlefront's campaign gives a lot more insight on what the First Order is after two movies it's weird. Don't get me wrong, I like the fact that Iden's campaign expands the lore, but why didn't we get something more during TFA? The same goes for the novels, comics and the Resistance show. Or the fact that the cold war era ends at the beginning of TFA. I understand that they are trying to develop the characters with the new movies instead of doing some world building, but it wouldn't hurt to have both.

    What I meant with my comment is that both the OT and PT were vastly expanded using either canon material or the old EU (now legends). That is what made a lot of people invested in the universe, even if they loved the movies, too. Think about Maul or Grievous. They are basically wasted on the movies, but they get their background and lore during the TV show. To some extent, that is also the case of Count Dooku.

    I also make a difference between Dooku, Grievous, and say Snoke.

    Dooku and Grievous did not need much background for these films. We understand who they are and why they are part of this story with a few words and their design. Dooku is a man who left the Jedi order, reminding us of Qui-Gon, in opposition with the Republic's corruption we saw in TPM. With a "behind-the-scene" scheme : power and the fall of the Jedi, enemies of the Sith he is. Grievous is a warrior, in love with war : as peacekeepers, Jedi are natural enemies. What we know is enough to tell the fall of Anakin.

    Nothing contradicts their existence, on the contrary. Their side roles make sense in what was built.

    Snoke is a formidable darksider, in a world where Darkside has fallen 30 years ago. And that's it. And he's already winning a war. Out of nowhere, and we are told "just because". Contrary to PT, and even Vader in 1977, there is an existing and contradicting context being ignored. If part of TFA and TLJ plot was for the heroes to figure out how his existence was possible in this context, things would have been different.
  • Cane_danko wrote: »
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    Rey’s power comes from being kylo’s opposite in the dark. Her skill in the force is obviously lacking. She never does anything that comes close to anakin’s mastery of the force. She doesn’t even come close to kylo with her technique. Both movies she is told she needs a teacher. Her biggest force feat so far is lifting rocks. While yeah she does learn to tap into the force to help with her melee combat one could argue this is instinctive and just adds to her skill in melee combat which she learned having to survive on jakku. So no, mary sue is a dumb term people use to dismiss her character.

    "Rey's power comes from being Kylo's opposite in the dark."

    giphy.gif
    Allow me to elaborate. The Force is not a Ying Yang of light and dark. The "light side" is the Force. The Jedi follow the will of the Force and seek to fulfill it to the best of their ability. The "dark side" is a corruption of the Force that results when one is selfish instead of selfless and twists the Force to serve their own will instead of serving the will of the Force. The Force is not a ying yang that balances itself with equal portions of light and dark. The dark side is unnatural and harmful. If the Force just balanced its power levels like it supposedly does, then Luke should've been the most powerful Jedi ever after Yoda and Obi-Wan died. To summarize, that's not how the Force works.

    "Her biggest force feat so far is lifting rocks."

    Hmm...
    cm8wdu635hvk.png
    No... she's not overpowered at all... totally not a Mary Sue.
    Also, just lifting rocks. More like lifting several tons of boulders.

    "So no, Mary Sue is a 'dumb' term people use to dismiss her character."
    *deep breath*

    Argue against this.

    Also, just in case you try and use the "Luke/Anakin is a Mary Sue too" argument behold:

    Let's compare the three, shall we?
    Anakin: Trained from a young age in a time when the Jedi were prosperous. He most likely had multiple trained Jedi teachers as a child, in addition to being Obi Wan’s padawan. On top of that, Anakin was literally the Chosen One. Of course he was powerful. Anakin is also defeated by Count Dooku, resulting in him losing most of one of his arms and later by Obi-Wan, which results in the loss of more limbs.

    Luke: Before training, his only skill is his piloting abilities. Other than that, he's practically dead weight on the Death Star, barely even able to shoot a blaster. Later he was trained by Obi Wan and Yoda, two of the most powerful Jedi. Got his butt kicked by Vader, proving him not to be perfect, and needed to be saved by his friends. He also lost a hand in this duel. Luke couldn’t beat the Emperor on his own, in fact, he needed help from Vader to do that.

    Rey: Learns the Force exists and, in the span of one day, is able to use it to grab objects/preform mind tricks. She is able to outmaneuver Kylo when he attempts to get Luke’s location out of her, turning his Force mind reading back at him. In her first battle with Kylo, Rey defeats and almost manages to kill him. (Yes, I know he was injured. I don't care. Those who use the darkside draw strength and power from pain, so why wasn't he stronger?) Then in TLJ, which takes place less than a week after TFA, Rey holds her own against Snoke’s elite guards(Yes, there was a team up, but Rey still beats the guards. Highly trained fighters are beaten by a former scavenger that's been using a lightsaber for a few days. Explain.{Also, fighting with a staff is not the same thing as fighting with a sword of light that has a weightless blade that can cut through anything. Skill with one does not necessarily equate to skill with the other.})

    See what I mean when comparing these three. Compared to Anakin, and even Luke, Rey doesn’t have nearly as much training or experience. Yet, she manages to out outperform them. In both showdowns with the main Sith Lords of their movie’s, both Anakin and Luke lose an arm/hand. With Rey, she not only defeats Kylo, but almost manages to kill him with no injuries whatsoever. So, there is a clear difference that separates her from the other two, which invalidates the “Luke and Anakin are also Mary Sue's argument”

    I could go on ad infinitum about The Last Jedi and the many problems in it, but to do so would most likely overtake this thread. So I won't.


    Also, OT before ST as the OT is vastly superior, both in quality of content and in quantity.

    Yeah i never said luke and anakin are mary sue. I don’t use the term mary sue unless i am repeating it because i think it is a stupid term. As far as yods using all his strength to lift the pillars? How do you know. He closed his eyes so you assume that it takes all his strength? It could be he was focusing and using a fraction of the power.
    The force is not yin yang? Ummm ok. The force has been only loosely explained in the movies. It is what the writers want it to be. If you are talking about the eu force it has no place in the sequels and it is for reasons like this.
    These are all expectations you have of how these movies should work and because they don’t follow the script of the eu you want to arbitrate why things don’t make sense.
    I already mentioned why she beat kylo so trying to go over that again is an exercise in futility.


    2:24

    Looks like he's pretty strained when he's lifting that pillar. A significant portion of his strength was used to lift it.

    Also, the Force is not "just whatever the writers want it to be" If that was the case, the Force could be used to turn porgs into giant monsters. The Force has rules and a mythology and set of boundaries.

    Also, the current way the Force is described in the ST does not make as much sense as the one in the Expanded Universe. I will gladly take the one that makes more sense and doesn't turn the Force into yet another boring Ying Yang sort of thing seen in countless other forms of media. Also, if something in Legends isn't contradicted in "Canon" it's still valid. Also, the earlier example with Luke's lacking powerjump, if that's the way the force works, has yet to be spoken against.

    Also, like it or not, the term Mary Sue is not stupid, or sexist, or whatever words you want to use to dismiss the term because you don't like it. Mary Sue is a perfectly valid literary term just like Deus Ex Machina, Chekhov's Gun, Red Herring, and others. I could use the longer version of the term, "poorly written, overpowered character" but why do that when such a term exists? Calling the term stupid just deflects the valid criticism.

    And yet the term mary sue exists as a form of deflection
  • rollind24
    5567 posts Member
    edited June 30
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    Actually, I have a suggestion of why PT is "now" appreciated.

    PT films aren't good. Or at least not as good as people who were kids back then remember. It's not the films that got the people into it, it's the lore they brought. It's the era itself.
    The PT films brought a lot to the SW universe behind the cinematic flaws. Lucas had the guts to bring more different planets, ships, weapons and aliens than the ST dares doing.
    I mean, we got to see the legendary Clone Wars Obi-Wan was talking about in ANH. We got to see a full Jedi Order fighting. The films aren't great but the era has a lot to offer. Providing to the lore is actually what got people into TCW. Some people even complained only 1/5 of episodes were about the war itself in the end.

    ST is good looking but for the moment an empty shell, in comparison. The films themselves lack too much lore-providing and context. But it is still Star Wars and should have content.

    Bingo! Hit the nail right on the head. PT IMO is good ideas but executed not as well some had hoped. Where as the ST is a bad story executed well. I think more fans appreciate the prequels more because of the creativity within them.

    Now as for the topic at hand, whilst I am part of the crowd that hates the ST and doesn’t acknowledge it as canon. It's only fair ST does get more content within the game. But my question is what more could they do? Only thing I can think of is adding Poe as a playable ground hero and maybe General Hux too. Guess we'll have to wait for Episode IX to come out for more ideas.
    People always jump right to Poe as a hero, but I never see anyone mention Maz as a LS jetpack hero to counter the Fett(s). I would like Poe, but I'd much rather see Maz first! And then for the DS, there's always DJ (with maybe a scramble ability like the specialist, and a disruptor as well) -- I think he'd be more playable than Hux, who doesn't actually do anything.

    Best point here. I could go for Maz in the game.
    Post edited by rollind24 on
    #infantrylivesmatter
  • rollind24
    5567 posts Member
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    Privata wrote: »
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    I mean everyone knows the quality of movies goes OT > sequels > prequels. Anything else is just opinion.

    I'd beg to differ.
    OT tops it. But as of now, with the two films it had, ST fails :

    - Barely anything brought to the universe and lore, unless you consider black TIE Fighters, blue X-Wings, square-antenna Falcon, and Earth-looking planets a step forward from OT.
    - No context. The rare derivative risks lose all taste as not built properly (Snoke...).
    - No long-term vision : just look at the designs of Rey and Kylo, step back from Ep.8.
    - Mary-Sue hero = No fear for the character = No attachment. Just like Captain Marvel.

    Cinematic and visual qualities don't make it all. Yet I'd be happy to see Ep.9 reversing the trend by providing a lot to the overall Star Wars universe while justifying choices from previous films and providing lacking context.

    The new ships are perfect IMO, I mean the Nebulon C is the best thing ever.
    And the T-75s are amazing

    The Resistance and the new republic dynamic is super interesting with the parts of the government starting to get somewhat nostalgic to Empire, seing Leia as a warmonger with too much of her father in her. its amazing.

    The context is explained not just via dialogue but also via musical and visual cues (however the Leia and Vader stuff is from Bloodline)
    The First Order is a faction of Imperials who never surrendered who went to hide into the unknown regions. They doubled down on everything the Empire did becoming a nation without culture, without art just a war machine.

    The FO is the Empire without civilian words (while not stated in the movie they have civilians but they are mostly slaves)

    Snoke is basically like Maul, he his the source of most of Kylo's downfall killing him was a important turning point for the lore, Kylo and the conflict in general. it changed the status quo.
    The Evil Apprentice turned on his master, but this time it was it was neither how Palpatine and other Sith did so before, nor how Vader did it to save Luke, he is still stuck between light and dark unable to understand what he wants.

    This is just speculation but given the depth and how everything in the ST so far has meaning I expect Kylo's helmet is linked to Kintsugi

    They have a plan, Palpatine and the general end goal of whats going on has not changed, the journey to reaching that point however has changed. anyway the OT lacked a plan and the PTs got changed all the time and they turned out fine

    Rey is amazing
    She spent all her life on Jakku with nothing, had to fight every day to survive, yet she is vulnerable.
    In TFA she spends half the movie terrified, sweating out of fear, nearly crashes the falcon, gets captured, misses her first blaster shots, nearly looses against Kylo who was bleeding out and mentally unwell.

    In TLJ she spends half the movie in tears, gets letdown by her master only to ultimately learn the price and reward of failure from him, during the throne room fight she is over powered by the guards who would have killed her if it was not for her uneasy alliance with Ren.

    After everything that happened she understands Luke warnings and teaching but Luke finds part of himself in Rey and they learn from each other
    She picks up the torch, but before that Luke has his amazing final stand on Crait.

    So, Rey is not a mary sue. beyond being the complete opposite of one and being one of the leads that suffers the most.

    I find rey way more interesting than luke was in the OT. I always found luke to be kinda whiney. Which is funny because ot people think kylo is. I guess what obiwan said about our own point of view is truer than just the context he spoke it in. That being said i love old man luke. Cranky and sarcastic. Kind of like me.

    Glad I’m not the only person that didn’t mind Luke being portrayed like that lol
    #infantrylivesmatter
  • lowell
    969 posts Member
    edited June 29
    Are we moving from the T-70 to the T-85 models now in TROS?

    resistance-db-t-85-x-wing-main-image_a006d7bd.jpeg?region=0%2C0%2C1560%2C878&width=960

    I mean, if Kylo's going to evolve the TIE line in TROS, it might make sense for the Resistance to upgrade from the T-70 to the T-85 X-Wings.

    1rlrym2eq4s21.jpg

  • Cane_danko wrote: »
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    Rey’s power comes from being kylo’s opposite in the dark. Her skill in the force is obviously lacking. She never does anything that comes close to anakin’s mastery of the force. She doesn’t even come close to kylo with her technique. Both movies she is told she needs a teacher. Her biggest force feat so far is lifting rocks. While yeah she does learn to tap into the force to help with her melee combat one could argue this is instinctive and just adds to her skill in melee combat which she learned having to survive on jakku. So no, mary sue is a dumb term people use to dismiss her character.

    "Rey's power comes from being Kylo's opposite in the dark."

    giphy.gif
    Allow me to elaborate. The Force is not a Ying Yang of light and dark. The "light side" is the Force. The Jedi follow the will of the Force and seek to fulfill it to the best of their ability. The "dark side" is a corruption of the Force that results when one is selfish instead of selfless and twists the Force to serve their own will instead of serving the will of the Force. The Force is not a ying yang that balances itself with equal portions of light and dark. The dark side is unnatural and harmful. If the Force just balanced its power levels like it supposedly does, then Luke should've been the most powerful Jedi ever after Yoda and Obi-Wan died. To summarize, that's not how the Force works.

    "Her biggest force feat so far is lifting rocks."

    Hmm...
    cm8wdu635hvk.png
    No... she's not overpowered at all... totally not a Mary Sue.
    Also, just lifting rocks. More like lifting several tons of boulders.

    "So no, Mary Sue is a 'dumb' term people use to dismiss her character."
    *deep breath*

    Argue against this.

    Also, just in case you try and use the "Luke/Anakin is a Mary Sue too" argument behold:

    Let's compare the three, shall we?
    Anakin: Trained from a young age in a time when the Jedi were prosperous. He most likely had multiple trained Jedi teachers as a child, in addition to being Obi Wan’s padawan. On top of that, Anakin was literally the Chosen One. Of course he was powerful. Anakin is also defeated by Count Dooku, resulting in him losing most of one of his arms and later by Obi-Wan, which results in the loss of more limbs.

    Luke: Before training, his only skill is his piloting abilities. Other than that, he's practically dead weight on the Death Star, barely even able to shoot a blaster. Later he was trained by Obi Wan and Yoda, two of the most powerful Jedi. Got his butt kicked by Vader, proving him not to be perfect, and needed to be saved by his friends. He also lost a hand in this duel. Luke couldn’t beat the Emperor on his own, in fact, he needed help from Vader to do that.

    Rey: Learns the Force exists and, in the span of one day, is able to use it to grab objects/preform mind tricks. She is able to outmaneuver Kylo when he attempts to get Luke’s location out of her, turning his Force mind reading back at him. In her first battle with Kylo, Rey defeats and almost manages to kill him. (Yes, I know he was injured. I don't care. Those who use the darkside draw strength and power from pain, so why wasn't he stronger?) Then in TLJ, which takes place less than a week after TFA, Rey holds her own against Snoke’s elite guards(Yes, there was a team up, but Rey still beats the guards. Highly trained fighters are beaten by a former scavenger that's been using a lightsaber for a few days. Explain.{Also, fighting with a staff is not the same thing as fighting with a sword of light that has a weightless blade that can cut through anything. Skill with one does not necessarily equate to skill with the other.})

    See what I mean when comparing these three. Compared to Anakin, and even Luke, Rey doesn’t have nearly as much training or experience. Yet, she manages to out outperform them. In both showdowns with the main Sith Lords of their movie’s, both Anakin and Luke lose an arm/hand. With Rey, she not only defeats Kylo, but almost manages to kill him with no injuries whatsoever. So, there is a clear difference that separates her from the other two, which invalidates the “Luke and Anakin are also Mary Sue's argument”

    I could go on ad infinitum about The Last Jedi and the many problems in it, but to do so would most likely overtake this thread. So I won't.


    Also, OT before ST as the OT is vastly superior, both in quality of content and in quantity.

    Yeah i never said luke and anakin are mary sue. I don’t use the term mary sue unless i am repeating it because i think it is a stupid term. As far as yods using all his strength to lift the pillars? How do you know. He closed his eyes so you assume that it takes all his strength? It could be he was focusing and using a fraction of the power.
    The force is not yin yang? Ummm ok. The force has been only loosely explained in the movies. It is what the writers want it to be. If you are talking about the eu force it has no place in the sequels and it is for reasons like this.
    These are all expectations you have of how these movies should work and because they don’t follow the script of the eu you want to arbitrate why things don’t make sense.
    I already mentioned why she beat kylo so trying to go over that again is an exercise in futility.


    2:24

    Looks like he's pretty strained when he's lifting that pillar. A significant portion of his strength was used to lift it.

    Also, the Force is not "just whatever the writers want it to be" If that was the case, the Force could be used to turn porgs into giant monsters. The Force has rules and a mythology and set of boundaries.

    Also, the current way the Force is described in the ST does not make as much sense as the one in the Expanded Universe. I will gladly take the one that makes more sense and doesn't turn the Force into yet another boring Ying Yang sort of thing seen in countless other forms of media. Also, if something in Legends isn't contradicted in "Canon" it's still valid. Also, the earlier example with Luke's lacking powerjump, if that's the way the force works, has yet to be spoken against.

    Also, like it or not, the term Mary Sue is not stupid, or sexist, or whatever words you want to use to dismiss the term because you don't like it. Mary Sue is a perfectly valid literary term just like Deus Ex Machina, Chekhov's Gun, Red Herring, and others. I could use the longer version of the term, "poorly written, overpowered character" but why do that when such a term exists? Calling the term stupid just deflects the valid criticism.

    And yet the term mary sue exists as a form of deflection

    Not really at all...
    Heroes are born on the battlefront... especially if you play the objective.
    kui7ctmgyzll.png
  • Alex64
    7020 posts Member
    lowell wrote: »
    Are we moving from the T-70 to the T-85 models now in TROS?

    resistance-db-t-85-x-wing-main-image_a006d7bd.jpeg?region=0%2C0%2C1560%2C878&width=960

    I mean, if Kylo's going to evolve the TIE line in TROS, it might make sense for the Resistance to upgrade from the T-70 to the T-85 X-Wings.

    1rlrym2eq4s21.jpg

    Powerful Rey
  • Well, some of you will nitpick these new movies to death. For those of us that enjoy them i guess our best bet is to just laugh at you because you spend so much time picking apart these movies that they never really had a chance for you to enjoy them anyway. It is probably best you stick with marvel where there are no plot holes or over powered females.
  • JadeRaptor64
    1667 posts Member
    edited June 30
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    Well, some of you will nitpick these new movies to death. For those of us that enjoy them i guess our best bet is to just laugh at you because you spend so much time picking apart these movies that they never really had a chance for you to enjoy them anyway. It is probably best you stick with marvel where there are no plot holes or over powered females.

    A bit condescending, but okay. I actually really liked TLJ at first, but then I started thinking about it and it just started to fall apart. I have no qualms with you or anyone else liking these movies, but perhaps be a bit more open minded?
    Heroes are born on the battlefront... especially if you play the objective.
    kui7ctmgyzll.png
  • TFA was fantastic. TLJ made me want to vomit. TROS I personally think will redeem the trilogy.

    PSN: BucksawBoushh
  • lowell
    969 posts Member
    Would be cool to see the Colossus show up in TROS as a cameo like the Ghost or Hammerhead corvettes in Rogue One.

    5870553784a18_GhostRogueOne.JPG.3a67ca9711e3fb8a25f0f8512bd509f7.JPG

    rogueone-ghostB.jpg

    an1-ff-002813.jpg

    latest?cb=20190318023818


    Since we also got Chopper and Saw Gerrera in the film, would also be cool to get Kaz, Pyre, CB-23, or even Bucket also in TROS.

    maxresdefault.jpg

    rogueone-saw.jpg

    Kazuda-Xiono.jpg

    descent-star-wars-resistance-yeager-troopers.jpg

    maxresdefault.jpg

    image?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdorksideoftheforce.com%2Ffiles%2F2019%2F02%2F149791_0328.jpg&c=sc&w=736&h=485
  • SnakeMajin
    302 posts Member
    edited June 30
    TheScape wrote: »
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    TheScape wrote: »
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    Privata wrote: »
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    I mean everyone knows the quality of movies goes OT > sequels > prequels. Anything else is just opinion.

    I'd beg to differ.
    OT tops it. But as of now, with the two films it had, ST fails :

    - Barely anything brought to the universe and lore, unless you consider black TIE Fighters, blue X-Wings, square-antenna Falcon, and Earth-looking planets a step forward from OT.
    - No context. The rare derivative risks lose all taste as not built properly (Snoke...).
    - No long-term vision : just look at the designs of Rey and Kylo, step back from Ep.8.
    - Mary-Sue hero = No fear for the character = No attachment. Just like Captain Marvel.

    Cinematic and visual qualities don't make it all. Yet I'd be happy to see Ep.9 reversing the trend by providing a lot to the overall Star Wars universe while justifying choices from previous films and providing lacking context.

    The new ships are perfect IMO, I mean the Nebulon C is the best thing ever.
    And the T-75s are amazing

    The Resistance and the new republic dynamic is super interesting with the parts of the government starting to get somewhat nostalgic to Empire, seing Leia as a warmonger with too much of her father in her. its amazing.

    The context is explained not just via dialogue but also via musical and visual cues (however the Leia and Vader stuff is from Bloodline)
    The First Order is a faction of Imperials who never surrendered who went to hide into the unknown regions. They doubled down on everything the Empire did becoming a nation without culture, without art just a war machine.

    The FO is the Empire without civilian words (while not stated in the movie they have civilians but they are mostly slaves)

    Snoke is basically like Maul, he his the source of most of Kylo's downfall killing him was a important turning point for the lore, Kylo and the conflict in general. it changed the status quo.
    The Evil Apprentice turned on his master, but this time it was it was neither how Palpatine and other Sith did so before, nor how Vader did it to save Luke, he is still stuck between light and dark unable to understand what he wants.

    This is just speculation but given the depth and how everything in the ST so far has meaning I expect Kylo's helmet is linked to Kintsugi

    They have a plan, Palpatine and the general end goal of whats going on has not changed, the journey to reaching that point however has changed. anyway the OT lacked a plan and the PTs got changed all the time and they turned out fine

    Rey is amazing
    She spent all her life on Jakku with nothing, had to fight every day to survive, yet she is vulnerable.
    In TFA she spends half the movie terrified, sweating out of fear, nearly crashes the falcon, gets captured, misses her first blaster shots, nearly looses against Kylo who was bleeding out and mentally unwell.

    In TLJ she spends half the movie in tears, gets letdown by her master only to ultimately learn the price and reward of failure from him, during the throne room fight she is over powered by the guards who would have killed her if it was not for her uneasy alliance with Ren.

    After everything that happened she understands Luke warnings and teaching but Luke finds part of himself in Rey and they learn from each other
    She picks up the torch, but before that Luke has his amazing final stand on Crait.

    So, Rey is not a mary sue. beyond being the complete opposite of one and being one of the leads that suffers the most.

    There is a difference to make between ST era and ST films. On their own, without Lucasfilm explanations, novels, etc. the films are not clear enough to even give a glimpse of what you mentionned about Snoke or the cold war. You need the surrounding canon to understand these films, when it is supposed to be the other way around.

    My dislike for the films is not a dislike for the overall "Canon" built around them. That's why I'd take Episode 9 content over more CW despite my personnal tastes.

    Rey the opposite of a Mary-Sue ? A person who gets better at using the force and a lightsaber in one day than a person who spent his life training in these fields is not a Mary-Sue ? Seriously ?
    Even Anakin doesn't show such "marvellous" signs in TPM despite being "The Chosen One".

    If you think about it, Anakin has a lot more development during the TV show than the films. So, it is not the first time that the era's depth comes from outside the movies. That is part of the "magic" of Star Wars. Even if I like the movies (specially the OT), I got hooked to Star Wars thanks to the games, for example.

    I see quite a difference.

    Anakin's fall is executed far too quickly. TCW does build a lot his fall. But there is enough material in Ep.3 to at least understand what is going on. It just feels too fast.

    In ST films, things are thrown at us all over the place. No time for explanations. "Just because".

    That isn't even remotely true. The "chosen one" prophecy is thrown at us, "just because". There is no mention of such a thing durint the OT? Why? Because George Lucas hadn't thought about that until he decided to go for the PT. In the end, you could hace the same story without mentioning it and everything would make sense.

    You say there is enough material in ep. 3 to understand his transformation, but all there is is him whining most of the time. You don't really see him become the general he is and you don't really get an explanation on why he should be a master without seeing all he did on the TV show. The moment where he decides to "turn" and starting killing children is also not justified through the movie. One thing is to kill slavers (which is also weird), the other is just killing children of jedi who he didn't have a problem with until Palpatine says so.

    I am not saying there aren't things left unexplained during the ST, but that's also the case for the PT. You just accept it for one trilogy, but not the other.
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    TheScape wrote: »
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    TheScape wrote: »
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    Privata wrote: »
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    I mean everyone knows the quality of movies goes OT > sequels > prequels. Anything else is just opinion.

    I'd beg to differ.
    OT tops it. But as of now, with the two films it had, ST fails :

    - Barely anything brought to the universe and lore, unless you consider black TIE Fighters, blue X-Wings, square-antenna Falcon, and Earth-looking planets a step forward from OT.
    - No context. The rare derivative risks lose all taste as not built properly (Snoke...).
    - No long-term vision : just look at the designs of Rey and Kylo, step back from Ep.8.
    - Mary-Sue hero = No fear for the character = No attachment. Just like Captain Marvel.

    Cinematic and visual qualities don't make it all. Yet I'd be happy to see Ep.9 reversing the trend by providing a lot to the overall Star Wars universe while justifying choices from previous films and providing lacking context.

    The new ships are perfect IMO, I mean the Nebulon C is the best thing ever.
    And the T-75s are amazing

    The Resistance and the new republic dynamic is super interesting with the parts of the government starting to get somewhat nostalgic to Empire, seing Leia as a warmonger with too much of her father in her. its amazing.

    The context is explained not just via dialogue but also via musical and visual cues (however the Leia and Vader stuff is from Bloodline)
    The First Order is a faction of Imperials who never surrendered who went to hide into the unknown regions. They doubled down on everything the Empire did becoming a nation without culture, without art just a war machine.

    The FO is the Empire without civilian words (while not stated in the movie they have civilians but they are mostly slaves)

    Snoke is basically like Maul, he his the source of most of Kylo's downfall killing him was a important turning point for the lore, Kylo and the conflict in general. it changed the status quo.
    The Evil Apprentice turned on his master, but this time it was it was neither how Palpatine and other Sith did so before, nor how Vader did it to save Luke, he is still stuck between light and dark unable to understand what he wants.

    This is just speculation but given the depth and how everything in the ST so far has meaning I expect Kylo's helmet is linked to Kintsugi

    They have a plan, Palpatine and the general end goal of whats going on has not changed, the journey to reaching that point however has changed. anyway the OT lacked a plan and the PTs got changed all the time and they turned out fine

    Rey is amazing
    She spent all her life on Jakku with nothing, had to fight every day to survive, yet she is vulnerable.
    In TFA she spends half the movie terrified, sweating out of fear, nearly crashes the falcon, gets captured, misses her first blaster shots, nearly looses against Kylo who was bleeding out and mentally unwell.

    In TLJ she spends half the movie in tears, gets letdown by her master only to ultimately learn the price and reward of failure from him, during the throne room fight she is over powered by the guards who would have killed her if it was not for her uneasy alliance with Ren.

    After everything that happened she understands Luke warnings and teaching but Luke finds part of himself in Rey and they learn from each other
    She picks up the torch, but before that Luke has his amazing final stand on Crait.

    So, Rey is not a mary sue. beyond being the complete opposite of one and being one of the leads that suffers the most.

    There is a difference to make between ST era and ST films. On their own, without Lucasfilm explanations, novels, etc. the films are not clear enough to even give a glimpse of what you mentionned about Snoke or the cold war. You need the surrounding canon to understand these films, when it is supposed to be the other way around.

    My dislike for the films is not a dislike for the overall "Canon" built around them. That's why I'd take Episode 9 content over more CW despite my personnal tastes.

    Rey the opposite of a Mary-Sue ? A person who gets better at using the force and a lightsaber in one day than a person who spent his life training in these fields is not a Mary-Sue ? Seriously ?
    Even Anakin doesn't show such "marvellous" signs in TPM despite being "The Chosen One".

    If you think about it, Anakin has a lot more development during the TV show than the films. So, it is not the first time that the era's depth comes from outside the movies. That is part of the "magic" of Star Wars. Even if I like the movies (specially the OT), I got hooked to Star Wars thanks to the games, for example.

    Well, i do agree that the sequels should have had better world building in the movies. The prequels are the best star wars movies in this aspect. Because people said too much politics is the reason they stayed away from it i am guessing. The lore behind the sequels is awesome and would have made the movies more coherent in terms of what is going on in the galaxy. The characters are really good in the sequels and i am an advent defender of that.

    I agree, too. The way Battlefront's campaign gives a lot more insight on what the First Order is after two movies it's weird. Don't get me wrong, I like the fact that Iden's campaign expands the lore, but why didn't we get something more during TFA? The same goes for the novels, comics and the Resistance show. Or the fact that the cold war era ends at the beginning of TFA. I understand that they are trying to develop the characters with the new movies instead of doing some world building, but it wouldn't hurt to have both.

    What I meant with my comment is that both the OT and PT were vastly expanded using either canon material or the old EU (now legends). That is what made a lot of people invested in the universe, even if they loved the movies, too. Think about Maul or Grievous. They are basically wasted on the movies, but they get their background and lore during the TV show. To some extent, that is also the case of Count Dooku.

    I also make a difference between Dooku, Grievous, and say Snoke.

    Dooku and Grievous did not need much background for these films. We understand who they are and why they are part of this story with a few words and their design. Dooku is a man who left the Jedi order, reminding us of Qui-Gon, in opposition with the Republic's corruption we saw in TPM. With a "behind-the-scene" scheme : power and the fall of the Jedi, enemies of the Sith he is. Grievous is a warrior, in love with war : as peacekeepers, Jedi are natural enemies. What we know is enough to tell the fall of Anakin.

    Nothing contradicts their existence, on the contrary. Their side roles make sense in what was built.

    Snoke is a formidable darksider, in a world where Darkside has fallen 30 years ago. And that's it. And he's already winning a war. Out of nowhere, and we are told "just because". Contrary to PT, and even Vader in 1977, there is an existing and contradicting context being ignored. If part of TFA and TLJ plot was for the heroes to figure out how his existence was possible in this context, things would have been different.

    And that is your personal opinion, too. Snoke is just somebody that was unknown with control of the darkside, not a Sith. Sith were the ones that fell thanks to Palpatine's rule of two. There is no contradiction anywhere, unless you think that having Ventress, Maul and the Inquisiteur as dark users also contradicts what you said (all of them alive at some point after the fall of the Sith). He also makes sense as a device to explain Kylo's rise as a dark user.

    Again, it is just a matter of how nitpicky you are with one trilogy or the other.

    Nothing in OT contradicts the prophecy. PT builds it, relying on OT Vader as both a Jedi Order killer and Sith killer. We get to see this Jedi order of monks for the first time, why we can't we discover their beliefs at the same time ? Like Lucas' theory or not, it at least makes sense with what we already saw.

    Elves, dwarves and hobbits also come of nowhere in The fellowship with your arguments, taking me for an ****. The very thing you forget is that we are talking about a SEQUEL. If you bring in a sequel something that seems contradictory to what was built before, just take the minimum time to explain it. You just don't say "Oh yeah, not the focus".

    I'm more than fine with Snoke's existence, even the FO (outside of the design originality), all that was required was explaining how they can exist while we saw the end of an Empire and the beginning of a new Republic in ROTJ. Make FO/Snoke appear in TFA : fine. Make it already here and no explanation : what the hell ?

    Everything you mention about Anakin is true. That's what I said, it is a problem of execution. PT failed its execution. But not the lore building. You see nitpicking where you want to see it :
    - Nothing contradicts the yin-yang vision from TLJ. I even enjoy it and see Snoke's existence as an opposition to Luke being the only force user in the end of ROTJ. To me, the prophecy was still executed because Anakin destroyed the Jedi order, and the Sith order. We just discover in TLJ that with Luke's existence and Lightside still alive, darkside had to survive. I like it. All I want is a glimpse of explanation and not my own fan theory.
    - The characters you talk about are darksiders. Not Siths. We don't see them using lightnings or Sith powers. No contradiction.
    - I loved Kylo killing Snoke, quite a surprise, and made sense. But the way the film executed it was at the cost of Snoke's "minimum" background. All this mystery for nothing.
    - Anakin already a general and not a master ? For the first how is that supposed to be a problem, did we hear in Ep.2 he would never be one ? For the master thing, the council knows he's pushed by Palpatine, and we saw Windu distrusting him the whole film, the minimum to build this was shown and said. Even TCW does not even explain that part.

    You see, I can't wait for Episode 9. I really hope it will redeem the trilogy. I cant wait for ST content in the game. I'm just objective about the saga's flaws. But also objective about what was not actually a flaw.
  • Honestly I'm shocked Poe hasn't been added as a hero to this game yet. He could be based on Bossks gameplay style.

    Also there are some sweet looking FO trooper variants we can get as Infiltrators. The FO executioner for example!
  • I want Leia''s last jedi apperance
  • TheScape
    2211 posts Member
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    TheScape wrote: »
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    TheScape wrote: »
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    Privata wrote: »
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    I mean everyone knows the quality of movies goes OT > sequels > prequels. Anything else is just opinion.

    I'd beg to differ.
    OT tops it. But as of now, with the two films it had, ST fails :

    - Barely anything brought to the universe and lore, unless you consider black TIE Fighters, blue X-Wings, square-antenna Falcon, and Earth-looking planets a step forward from OT.
    - No context. The rare derivative risks lose all taste as not built properly (Snoke...).
    - No long-term vision : just look at the designs of Rey and Kylo, step back from Ep.8.
    - Mary-Sue hero = No fear for the character = No attachment. Just like Captain Marvel.

    Cinematic and visual qualities don't make it all. Yet I'd be happy to see Ep.9 reversing the trend by providing a lot to the overall Star Wars universe while justifying choices from previous films and providing lacking context.

    The new ships are perfect IMO, I mean the Nebulon C is the best thing ever.
    And the T-75s are amazing

    The Resistance and the new republic dynamic is super interesting with the parts of the government starting to get somewhat nostalgic to Empire, seing Leia as a warmonger with too much of her father in her. its amazing.

    The context is explained not just via dialogue but also via musical and visual cues (however the Leia and Vader stuff is from Bloodline)
    The First Order is a faction of Imperials who never surrendered who went to hide into the unknown regions. They doubled down on everything the Empire did becoming a nation without culture, without art just a war machine.

    The FO is the Empire without civilian words (while not stated in the movie they have civilians but they are mostly slaves)

    Snoke is basically like Maul, he his the source of most of Kylo's downfall killing him was a important turning point for the lore, Kylo and the conflict in general. it changed the status quo.
    The Evil Apprentice turned on his master, but this time it was it was neither how Palpatine and other Sith did so before, nor how Vader did it to save Luke, he is still stuck between light and dark unable to understand what he wants.

    This is just speculation but given the depth and how everything in the ST so far has meaning I expect Kylo's helmet is linked to Kintsugi

    They have a plan, Palpatine and the general end goal of whats going on has not changed, the journey to reaching that point however has changed. anyway the OT lacked a plan and the PTs got changed all the time and they turned out fine

    Rey is amazing
    She spent all her life on Jakku with nothing, had to fight every day to survive, yet she is vulnerable.
    In TFA she spends half the movie terrified, sweating out of fear, nearly crashes the falcon, gets captured, misses her first blaster shots, nearly looses against Kylo who was bleeding out and mentally unwell.

    In TLJ she spends half the movie in tears, gets letdown by her master only to ultimately learn the price and reward of failure from him, during the throne room fight she is over powered by the guards who would have killed her if it was not for her uneasy alliance with Ren.

    After everything that happened she understands Luke warnings and teaching but Luke finds part of himself in Rey and they learn from each other
    She picks up the torch, but before that Luke has his amazing final stand on Crait.

    So, Rey is not a mary sue. beyond being the complete opposite of one and being one of the leads that suffers the most.

    There is a difference to make between ST era and ST films. On their own, without Lucasfilm explanations, novels, etc. the films are not clear enough to even give a glimpse of what you mentionned about Snoke or the cold war. You need the surrounding canon to understand these films, when it is supposed to be the other way around.

    My dislike for the films is not a dislike for the overall "Canon" built around them. That's why I'd take Episode 9 content over more CW despite my personnal tastes.

    Rey the opposite of a Mary-Sue ? A person who gets better at using the force and a lightsaber in one day than a person who spent his life training in these fields is not a Mary-Sue ? Seriously ?
    Even Anakin doesn't show such "marvellous" signs in TPM despite being "The Chosen One".

    If you think about it, Anakin has a lot more development during the TV show than the films. So, it is not the first time that the era's depth comes from outside the movies. That is part of the "magic" of Star Wars. Even if I like the movies (specially the OT), I got hooked to Star Wars thanks to the games, for example.

    I see quite a difference.

    Anakin's fall is executed far too quickly. TCW does build a lot his fall. But there is enough material in Ep.3 to at least understand what is going on. It just feels too fast.

    In ST films, things are thrown at us all over the place. No time for explanations. "Just because".

    That isn't even remotely true. The "chosen one" prophecy is thrown at us, "just because". There is no mention of such a thing durint the OT? Why? Because George Lucas hadn't thought about that until he decided to go for the PT. In the end, you could hace the same story without mentioning it and everything would make sense.

    You say there is enough material in ep. 3 to understand his transformation, but all there is is him whining most of the time. You don't really see him become the general he is and you don't really get an explanation on why he should be a master without seeing all he did on the TV show. The moment where he decides to "turn" and starting killing children is also not justified through the movie. One thing is to kill slavers (which is also weird), the other is just killing children of jedi who he didn't have a problem with until Palpatine says so.

    I am not saying there aren't things left unexplained during the ST, but that's also the case for the PT. You just accept it for one trilogy, but not the other.
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    TheScape wrote: »
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    TheScape wrote: »
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    Privata wrote: »
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    I mean everyone knows the quality of movies goes OT > sequels > prequels. Anything else is just opinion.

    I'd beg to differ.
    OT tops it. But as of now, with the two films it had, ST fails :

    - Barely anything brought to the universe and lore, unless you consider black TIE Fighters, blue X-Wings, square-antenna Falcon, and Earth-looking planets a step forward from OT.
    - No context. The rare derivative risks lose all taste as not built properly (Snoke...).
    - No long-term vision : just look at the designs of Rey and Kylo, step back from Ep.8.
    - Mary-Sue hero = No fear for the character = No attachment. Just like Captain Marvel.

    Cinematic and visual qualities don't make it all. Yet I'd be happy to see Ep.9 reversing the trend by providing a lot to the overall Star Wars universe while justifying choices from previous films and providing lacking context.

    The new ships are perfect IMO, I mean the Nebulon C is the best thing ever.
    And the T-75s are amazing

    The Resistance and the new republic dynamic is super interesting with the parts of the government starting to get somewhat nostalgic to Empire, seing Leia as a warmonger with too much of her father in her. its amazing.

    The context is explained not just via dialogue but also via musical and visual cues (however the Leia and Vader stuff is from Bloodline)
    The First Order is a faction of Imperials who never surrendered who went to hide into the unknown regions. They doubled down on everything the Empire did becoming a nation without culture, without art just a war machine.

    The FO is the Empire without civilian words (while not stated in the movie they have civilians but they are mostly slaves)

    Snoke is basically like Maul, he his the source of most of Kylo's downfall killing him was a important turning point for the lore, Kylo and the conflict in general. it changed the status quo.
    The Evil Apprentice turned on his master, but this time it was it was neither how Palpatine and other Sith did so before, nor how Vader did it to save Luke, he is still stuck between light and dark unable to understand what he wants.

    This is just speculation but given the depth and how everything in the ST so far has meaning I expect Kylo's helmet is linked to Kintsugi

    They have a plan, Palpatine and the general end goal of whats going on has not changed, the journey to reaching that point however has changed. anyway the OT lacked a plan and the PTs got changed all the time and they turned out fine

    Rey is amazing
    She spent all her life on Jakku with nothing, had to fight every day to survive, yet she is vulnerable.
    In TFA she spends half the movie terrified, sweating out of fear, nearly crashes the falcon, gets captured, misses her first blaster shots, nearly looses against Kylo who was bleeding out and mentally unwell.

    In TLJ she spends half the movie in tears, gets letdown by her master only to ultimately learn the price and reward of failure from him, during the throne room fight she is over powered by the guards who would have killed her if it was not for her uneasy alliance with Ren.

    After everything that happened she understands Luke warnings and teaching but Luke finds part of himself in Rey and they learn from each other
    She picks up the torch, but before that Luke has his amazing final stand on Crait.

    So, Rey is not a mary sue. beyond being the complete opposite of one and being one of the leads that suffers the most.

    There is a difference to make between ST era and ST films. On their own, without Lucasfilm explanations, novels, etc. the films are not clear enough to even give a glimpse of what you mentionned about Snoke or the cold war. You need the surrounding canon to understand these films, when it is supposed to be the other way around.

    My dislike for the films is not a dislike for the overall "Canon" built around them. That's why I'd take Episode 9 content over more CW despite my personnal tastes.

    Rey the opposite of a Mary-Sue ? A person who gets better at using the force and a lightsaber in one day than a person who spent his life training in these fields is not a Mary-Sue ? Seriously ?
    Even Anakin doesn't show such "marvellous" signs in TPM despite being "The Chosen One".

    If you think about it, Anakin has a lot more development during the TV show than the films. So, it is not the first time that the era's depth comes from outside the movies. That is part of the "magic" of Star Wars. Even if I like the movies (specially the OT), I got hooked to Star Wars thanks to the games, for example.

    Well, i do agree that the sequels should have had better world building in the movies. The prequels are the best star wars movies in this aspect. Because people said too much politics is the reason they stayed away from it i am guessing. The lore behind the sequels is awesome and would have made the movies more coherent in terms of what is going on in the galaxy. The characters are really good in the sequels and i am an advent defender of that.

    I agree, too. The way Battlefront's campaign gives a lot more insight on what the First Order is after two movies it's weird. Don't get me wrong, I like the fact that Iden's campaign expands the lore, but why didn't we get something more during TFA? The same goes for the novels, comics and the Resistance show. Or the fact that the cold war era ends at the beginning of TFA. I understand that they are trying to develop the characters with the new movies instead of doing some world building, but it wouldn't hurt to have both.

    What I meant with my comment is that both the OT and PT were vastly expanded using either canon material or the old EU (now legends). That is what made a lot of people invested in the universe, even if they loved the movies, too. Think about Maul or Grievous. They are basically wasted on the movies, but they get their background and lore during the TV show. To some extent, that is also the case of Count Dooku.

    I also make a difference between Dooku, Grievous, and say Snoke.

    Dooku and Grievous did not need much background for these films. We understand who they are and why they are part of this story with a few words and their design. Dooku is a man who left the Jedi order, reminding us of Qui-Gon, in opposition with the Republic's corruption we saw in TPM. With a "behind-the-scene" scheme : power and the fall of the Jedi, enemies of the Sith he is. Grievous is a warrior, in love with war : as peacekeepers, Jedi are natural enemies. What we know is enough to tell the fall of Anakin.

    Nothing contradicts their existence, on the contrary. Their side roles make sense in what was built.

    Snoke is a formidable darksider, in a world where Darkside has fallen 30 years ago. And that's it. And he's already winning a war. Out of nowhere, and we are told "just because". Contrary to PT, and even Vader in 1977, there is an existing and contradicting context being ignored. If part of TFA and TLJ plot was for the heroes to figure out how his existence was possible in this context, things would have been different.

    And that is your personal opinion, too. Snoke is just somebody that was unknown with control of the darkside, not a Sith. Sith were the ones that fell thanks to Palpatine's rule of two. There is no contradiction anywhere, unless you think that having Ventress, Maul and the Inquisiteur as dark users also contradicts what you said (all of them alive at some point after the fall of the Sith). He also makes sense as a device to explain Kylo's rise as a dark user.

    Again, it is just a matter of how nitpicky you are with one trilogy or the other.

    Nothing in OT contradicts the prophecy. PT builds it, relying on OT Vader as both a Jedi Order killer and Sith killer. We get to see this Jedi order of monks for the first time, why we can't we discover their beliefs at the same time ? Like Lucas' theory or not, it at least makes sense with what we already saw.

    Elves, dwarves and hobbits also come of nowhere in The fellowship with your arguments, taking me for an ****. The very thing you forget is that we are talking about a SEQUEL. If you bring in a sequel something that seems contradictory to what was built before, just take the minimum time to explain it. You just don't say "Oh yeah, not the focus".

    I'm more than fine with Snoke's existence, even the FO (outside of the design originality), all that was required was explaining how they can exist while we saw the end of an Empire and the beginning of a new Republic in ROTJ. Make FO/Snoke appear in TFA : fine. Make it already here and no explanation : what the hell ?

    Everything you mention about Anakin is true. That's what I said, it is a problem of execution. PT failed its execution. But not the lore building. You see nitpicking where you want to see it :
    - Nothing contradicts the yin-yang vision from TLJ. I even enjoy it and see Snoke's existence as an opposition to Luke being the only force user in the end of ROTJ. To me, the prophecy was still executed because Anakin destroyed the Jedi order, and the Sith order. We just discover in TLJ that with Luke's existence and Lightside still alive, darkside had to survive. I like it. All I want is a glimpse of explanation and not my own fan theory.
    - The characters you talk about are darksiders. Not Siths. We don't see them using lightnings or Sith powers. No contradiction.
    - I loved Kylo killing Snoke, quite a surprise, and made sense. But the way the film executed it was at the cost of Snoke's "minimum" background. All this mystery for nothing.
    - Anakin already a general and not a master ? For the first how is that supposed to be a problem, did we hear in Ep.2 he would never be one ? For the master thing, the council knows he's pushed by Palpatine, and we saw Windu distrusting him the whole film, the minimum to build this was shown and said. Even TCW does not even explain that part.

    You see, I can't wait for Episode 9. I really hope it will redeem the trilogy. I cant wait for ST content in the game. I'm just objective about the saga's flaws. But also objective about what was not actually a flaw.

    First of all, I wasn't trying to be rude or make you look like an ****, I was just saying that both trilogies have flaws when it comes to explaining things and the lore. I'll go point by point with what you said.

    I never said that the "chosen one" prophecy contradicted the OT. I said it comes out of nowhere and it isn't necessary. It seems to add a layer of complexity around Anakin, but in the end it left ambiguous and it's even suggested that it might haven been misinterpreted. So, in the end, it is a great concept that is barely used.

    Sure, we are talking about a sequel but the PT was filmed after the OT. It is not chronologically a sequel, but it comes after the foundation of the saga. Things like R2-D2 and Obi Wan knowing each other contradicts their first scene on episode 4. Again, my point is not to disprove all that you said or nitpick, my point is there are flaws in both the PT and the ST in terms of contradictions that can be explained one way or another.

    I don't disagree about Snoke dying to soon, but think about the Emperor if we only got the OT. He was barely explained by episode 6 and his motives were never clear. I mean, while I would like a lot more backstory (and that includes some summary of the time lapse between episode 6 and 7) I am fine with some things left to be explored in other media if they at least serve a purpose in the movies (like Kylo's rise, or Vader's retun to the lightside).

    I did say they are darksiders. You were the one that said that Snoke being a darksider contradicted the canon. I was just pointing out that he is not the first powerful darksider that isn't a Sith. I actually prefer him not being one, since it gives room to explore new things (although I would love an exploration of the Old Republic and the fall of the Sith).

    What I meant with Anakin is that we just see glimpses of him during episode 2 and 3, but we never see enough of his evolution to justify the drama of his position as a general and the sleight to him when he is not allowed to be a knight. We see him fight several wars in very interesting ways (usually going against the council) in the TCW which makes it better.

    Anyways, sorry if it seemed like I was arguing for the sake of it. I just feel like all the movies have their own flaws and I like them all. It is also unfair to compare a full trilogy (PT) with just two movies. But all is good and we have differing opinions.
    May your heart be your guiding key.
  • Cane_danko wrote: »
    Well, some of you will nitpick these new movies to death. For those of us that enjoy them i guess our best bet is to just laugh at you because you spend so much time picking apart these movies that they never really had a chance for you to enjoy them anyway. It is probably best you stick with marvel where there are no plot holes or over powered females.

    Some are really talking others for **** around here. You lost all seriousness adding the word "female" as the reason some are bothered with Rey being over-powered.
  • Cane_danko wrote: »
    Well, some of you will nitpick these new movies to death. For those of us that enjoy them i guess our best bet is to just laugh at you because you spend so much time picking apart these movies that they never really had a chance for you to enjoy them anyway. It is probably best you stick with marvel where there are no plot holes or over powered females.

    C'mon, man, no need for that. And for your information, I nitpick every SW film, not just TLJ, its just that TLJ as sooooooo much more to nitpick. And really? Females? You think that is an actual issue? Grow up
  • TheScape wrote: »
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    TheScape wrote: »
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    TheScape wrote: »
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    Privata wrote: »
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    I mean everyone knows the quality of movies goes OT > sequels > prequels. Anything else is just opinion.

    I'd beg to differ.
    OT tops it. But as of now, with the two films it had, ST fails :

    - Barely anything brought to the universe and lore, unless you consider black TIE Fighters, blue X-Wings, square-antenna Falcon, and Earth-looking planets a step forward from OT.
    - No context. The rare derivative risks lose all taste as not built properly (Snoke...).
    - No long-term vision : just look at the designs of Rey and Kylo, step back from Ep.8.
    - Mary-Sue hero = No fear for the character = No attachment. Just like Captain Marvel.

    Cinematic and visual qualities don't make it all. Yet I'd be happy to see Ep.9 reversing the trend by providing a lot to the overall Star Wars universe while justifying choices from previous films and providing lacking context.

    The new ships are perfect IMO, I mean the Nebulon C is the best thing ever.
    And the T-75s are amazing

    The Resistance and the new republic dynamic is super interesting with the parts of the government starting to get somewhat nostalgic to Empire, seing Leia as a warmonger with too much of her father in her. its amazing.

    The context is explained not just via dialogue but also via musical and visual cues (however the Leia and Vader stuff is from Bloodline)
    The First Order is a faction of Imperials who never surrendered who went to hide into the unknown regions. They doubled down on everything the Empire did becoming a nation without culture, without art just a war machine.

    The FO is the Empire without civilian words (while not stated in the movie they have civilians but they are mostly slaves)

    Snoke is basically like Maul, he his the source of most of Kylo's downfall killing him was a important turning point for the lore, Kylo and the conflict in general. it changed the status quo.
    The Evil Apprentice turned on his master, but this time it was it was neither how Palpatine and other Sith did so before, nor how Vader did it to save Luke, he is still stuck between light and dark unable to understand what he wants.

    This is just speculation but given the depth and how everything in the ST so far has meaning I expect Kylo's helmet is linked to Kintsugi

    They have a plan, Palpatine and the general end goal of whats going on has not changed, the journey to reaching that point however has changed. anyway the OT lacked a plan and the PTs got changed all the time and they turned out fine

    Rey is amazing
    She spent all her life on Jakku with nothing, had to fight every day to survive, yet she is vulnerable.
    In TFA she spends half the movie terrified, sweating out of fear, nearly crashes the falcon, gets captured, misses her first blaster shots, nearly looses against Kylo who was bleeding out and mentally unwell.

    In TLJ she spends half the movie in tears, gets letdown by her master only to ultimately learn the price and reward of failure from him, during the throne room fight she is over powered by the guards who would have killed her if it was not for her uneasy alliance with Ren.

    After everything that happened she understands Luke warnings and teaching but Luke finds part of himself in Rey and they learn from each other
    She picks up the torch, but before that Luke has his amazing final stand on Crait.

    So, Rey is not a mary sue. beyond being the complete opposite of one and being one of the leads that suffers the most.

    There is a difference to make between ST era and ST films. On their own, without Lucasfilm explanations, novels, etc. the films are not clear enough to even give a glimpse of what you mentionned about Snoke or the cold war. You need the surrounding canon to understand these films, when it is supposed to be the other way around.

    My dislike for the films is not a dislike for the overall "Canon" built around them. That's why I'd take Episode 9 content over more CW despite my personnal tastes.

    Rey the opposite of a Mary-Sue ? A person who gets better at using the force and a lightsaber in one day than a person who spent his life training in these fields is not a Mary-Sue ? Seriously ?
    Even Anakin doesn't show such "marvellous" signs in TPM despite being "The Chosen One".

    If you think about it, Anakin has a lot more development during the TV show than the films. So, it is not the first time that the era's depth comes from outside the movies. That is part of the "magic" of Star Wars. Even if I like the movies (specially the OT), I got hooked to Star Wars thanks to the games, for example.

    I see quite a difference.

    Anakin's fall is executed far too quickly. TCW does build a lot his fall. But there is enough material in Ep.3 to at least understand what is going on. It just feels too fast.

    In ST films, things are thrown at us all over the place. No time for explanations. "Just because".

    That isn't even remotely true. The "chosen one" prophecy is thrown at us, "just because". There is no mention of such a thing durint the OT? Why? Because George Lucas hadn't thought about that until he decided to go for the PT. In the end, you could hace the same story without mentioning it and everything would make sense.

    You say there is enough material in ep. 3 to understand his transformation, but all there is is him whining most of the time. You don't really see him become the general he is and you don't really get an explanation on why he should be a master without seeing all he did on the TV show. The moment where he decides to "turn" and starting killing children is also not justified through the movie. One thing is to kill slavers (which is also weird), the other is just killing children of jedi who he didn't have a problem with until Palpatine says so.

    I am not saying there aren't things left unexplained during the ST, but that's also the case for the PT. You just accept it for one trilogy, but not the other.
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    TheScape wrote: »
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    TheScape wrote: »
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    Privata wrote: »
    SnakeMajin wrote: »
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    I mean everyone knows the quality of movies goes OT > sequels > prequels. Anything else is just opinion.

    I'd beg to differ.
    OT tops it. But as of now, with the two films it had, ST fails :

    - Barely anything brought to the universe and lore, unless you consider black TIE Fighters, blue X-Wings, square-antenna Falcon, and Earth-looking planets a step forward from OT.
    - No context. The rare derivative risks lose all taste as not built properly (Snoke...).
    - No long-term vision : just look at the designs of Rey and Kylo, step back from Ep.8.
    - Mary-Sue hero = No fear for the character = No attachment. Just like Captain Marvel.

    Cinematic and visual qualities don't make it all. Yet I'd be happy to see Ep.9 reversing the trend by providing a lot to the overall Star Wars universe while justifying choices from previous films and providing lacking context.

    The new ships are perfect IMO, I mean the Nebulon C is the best thing ever.
    And the T-75s are amazing

    The Resistance and the new republic dynamic is super interesting with the parts of the government starting to get somewhat nostalgic to Empire, seing Leia as a warmonger with too much of her father in her. its amazing.

    The context is explained not just via dialogue but also via musical and visual cues (however the Leia and Vader stuff is from Bloodline)
    The First Order is a faction of Imperials who never surrendered who went to hide into the unknown regions. They doubled down on everything the Empire did becoming a nation without culture, without art just a war machine.

    The FO is the Empire without civilian words (while not stated in the movie they have civilians but they are mostly slaves)

    Snoke is basically like Maul, he his the source of most of Kylo's downfall killing him was a important turning point for the lore, Kylo and the conflict in general. it changed the status quo.
    The Evil Apprentice turned on his master, but this time it was it was neither how Palpatine and other Sith did so before, nor how Vader did it to save Luke, he is still stuck between light and dark unable to understand what he wants.

    This is just speculation but given the depth and how everything in the ST so far has meaning I expect Kylo's helmet is linked to Kintsugi

    They have a plan, Palpatine and the general end goal of whats going on has not changed, the journey to reaching that point however has changed. anyway the OT lacked a plan and the PTs got changed all the time and they turned out fine

    Rey is amazing
    She spent all her life on Jakku with nothing, had to fight every day to survive, yet she is vulnerable.
    In TFA she spends half the movie terrified, sweating out of fear, nearly crashes the falcon, gets captured, misses her first blaster shots, nearly looses against Kylo who was bleeding out and mentally unwell.

    In TLJ she spends half the movie in tears, gets letdown by her master only to ultimately learn the price and reward of failure from him, during the throne room fight she is over powered by the guards who would have killed her if it was not for her uneasy alliance with Ren.

    After everything that happened she understands Luke warnings and teaching but Luke finds part of himself in Rey and they learn from each other
    She picks up the torch, but before that Luke has his amazing final stand on Crait.

    So, Rey is not a mary sue. beyond being the complete opposite of one and being one of the leads that suffers the most.

    There is a difference to make between ST era and ST films. On their own, without Lucasfilm explanations, novels, etc. the films are not clear enough to even give a glimpse of what you mentionned about Snoke or the cold war. You need the surrounding canon to understand these films, when it is supposed to be the other way around.

    My dislike for the films is not a dislike for the overall "Canon" built around them. That's why I'd take Episode 9 content over more CW despite my personnal tastes.

    Rey the opposite of a Mary-Sue ? A person who gets better at using the force and a lightsaber in one day than a person who spent his life training in these fields is not a Mary-Sue ? Seriously ?
    Even Anakin doesn't show such "marvellous" signs in TPM despite being "The Chosen One".

    If you think about it, Anakin has a lot more development during the TV show than the films. So, it is not the first time that the era's depth comes from outside the movies. That is part of the "magic" of Star Wars. Even if I like the movies (specially the OT), I got hooked to Star Wars thanks to the games, for example.

    Well, i do agree that the sequels should have had better world building in the movies. The prequels are the best star wars movies in this aspect. Because people said too much politics is the reason they stayed away from it i am guessing. The lore behind the sequels is awesome and would have made the movies more coherent in terms of what is going on in the galaxy. The characters are really good in the sequels and i am an advent defender of that.

    I agree, too. The way Battlefront's campaign gives a lot more insight on what the First Order is after two movies it's weird. Don't get me wrong, I like the fact that Iden's campaign expands the lore, but why didn't we get something more during TFA? The same goes for the novels, comics and the Resistance show. Or the fact that the cold war era ends at the beginning of TFA. I understand that they are trying to develop the characters with the new movies instead of doing some world building, but it wouldn't hurt to have both.

    What I meant with my comment is that both the OT and PT were vastly expanded using either canon material or the old EU (now legends). That is what made a lot of people invested in the universe, even if they loved the movies, too. Think about Maul or Grievous. They are basically wasted on the movies, but they get their background and lore during the TV show. To some extent, that is also the case of Count Dooku.

    I also make a difference between Dooku, Grievous, and say Snoke.

    Dooku and Grievous did not need much background for these films. We understand who they are and why they are part of this story with a few words and their design. Dooku is a man who left the Jedi order, reminding us of Qui-Gon, in opposition with the Republic's corruption we saw in TPM. With a "behind-the-scene" scheme : power and the fall of the Jedi, enemies of the Sith he is. Grievous is a warrior, in love with war : as peacekeepers, Jedi are natural enemies. What we know is enough to tell the fall of Anakin.

    Nothing contradicts their existence, on the contrary. Their side roles make sense in what was built.

    Snoke is a formidable darksider, in a world where Darkside has fallen 30 years ago. And that's it. And he's already winning a war. Out of nowhere, and we are told "just because". Contrary to PT, and even Vader in 1977, there is an existing and contradicting context being ignored. If part of TFA and TLJ plot was for the heroes to figure out how his existence was possible in this context, things would have been different.

    And that is your personal opinion, too. Snoke is just somebody that was unknown with control of the darkside, not a Sith. Sith were the ones that fell thanks to Palpatine's rule of two. There is no contradiction anywhere, unless you think that having Ventress, Maul and the Inquisiteur as dark users also contradicts what you said (all of them alive at some point after the fall of the Sith). He also makes sense as a device to explain Kylo's rise as a dark user.

    Again, it is just a matter of how nitpicky you are with one trilogy or the other.

    Nothing in OT contradicts the prophecy. PT builds it, relying on OT Vader as both a Jedi Order killer and Sith killer. We get to see this Jedi order of monks for the first time, why we can't we discover their beliefs at the same time ? Like Lucas' theory or not, it at least makes sense with what we already saw.

    Elves, dwarves and hobbits also come of nowhere in The fellowship with your arguments, taking me for an ****. The very thing you forget is that we are talking about a SEQUEL. If you bring in a sequel something that seems contradictory to what was built before, just take the minimum time to explain it. You just don't say "Oh yeah, not the focus".

    I'm more than fine with Snoke's existence, even the FO (outside of the design originality), all that was required was explaining how they can exist while we saw the end of an Empire and the beginning of a new Republic in ROTJ. Make FO/Snoke appear in TFA : fine. Make it already here and no explanation : what the hell ?

    Everything you mention about Anakin is true. That's what I said, it is a problem of execution. PT failed its execution. But not the lore building. You see nitpicking where you want to see it :
    - Nothing contradicts the yin-yang vision from TLJ. I even enjoy it and see Snoke's existence as an opposition to Luke being the only force user in the end of ROTJ. To me, the prophecy was still executed because Anakin destroyed the Jedi order, and the Sith order. We just discover in TLJ that with Luke's existence and Lightside still alive, darkside had to survive. I like it. All I want is a glimpse of explanation and not my own fan theory.
    - The characters you talk about are darksiders. Not Siths. We don't see them using lightnings or Sith powers. No contradiction.
    - I loved Kylo killing Snoke, quite a surprise, and made sense. But the way the film executed it was at the cost of Snoke's "minimum" background. All this mystery for nothing.
    - Anakin already a general and not a master ? For the first how is that supposed to be a problem, did we hear in Ep.2 he would never be one ? For the master thing, the council knows he's pushed by Palpatine, and we saw Windu distrusting him the whole film, the minimum to build this was shown and said. Even TCW does not even explain that part.

    You see, I can't wait for Episode 9. I really hope it will redeem the trilogy. I cant wait for ST content in the game. I'm just objective about the saga's flaws. But also objective about what was not actually a flaw.

    First of all, I wasn't trying to be rude or make you look like an ****, I was just saying that both trilogies have flaws when it comes to explaining things and the lore. I'll go point by point with what you said.

    I never said that the "chosen one" prophecy contradicted the OT. I said it comes out of nowhere and it isn't necessary. It seems to add a layer of complexity around Anakin, but in the end it left ambiguous and it's even suggested that it might haven been misinterpreted. So, in the end, it is a great concept that is barely used.

    Sure, we are talking about a sequel but the PT was filmed after the OT. It is not chronologically a sequel, but it comes after the foundation of the saga. Things like R2-D2 and Obi Wan knowing each other contradicts their first scene on episode 4. Again, my point is not to disprove all that you said or nitpick, my point is there are flaws in both the PT and the ST in terms of contradictions that can be explained one way or another.

    I don't disagree about Snoke dying to soon, but think about the Emperor if we only got the OT. He was barely explained by episode 6 and his motives were never clear. I mean, while I would like a lot more backstory (and that includes some summary of the time lapse between episode 6 and 7) I am fine with some things left to be explored in other media if they at least serve a purpose in the movies (like Kylo's rise, or Vader's retun to the lightside).

    I did say they are darksiders. You were the one that said that Snoke being a darksider contradicted the canon. I was just pointing out that he is not the first powerful darksider that isn't a Sith. I actually prefer him not being one, since it gives room to explore new things (although I would love an exploration of the Old Republic and the fall of the Sith).

    What I meant with Anakin is that we just see glimpses of him during episode 2 and 3, but we never see enough of his evolution to justify the drama of his position as a general and the sleight to him when he is not allowed to be a knight. We see him fight several wars in very interesting ways (usually going against the council) in the TCW which makes it better.

    Anyways, sorry if it seemed like I was arguing for the sake of it. I just feel like all the movies have their own flaws and I like them all. It is also unfair to compare a full trilogy (PT) with just two movies. But all is good and we have differing opinions.

    No no it's fine by me ahah. For Snoke, being a darksider is not the problem, it really is about him being so strong in the force and manpower after we saw the darkside losing, and no explanation.

    You're right for the prophecy adding an unnecessary layer of complication.

    If we all argue on an obscure video game forum, I think it simply says a lot about Star Wars richness. I'm sorry for writting dissertations when trying to make a point. I really hope Ep.9 will make us fall in love.
  • Cane_danko wrote: »
    Well, some of you will nitpick these new movies to death. For those of us that enjoy them i guess our best bet is to just laugh at you because you spend so much time picking apart these movies that they never really had a chance for you to enjoy them anyway. It is probably best you stick with marvel where there are no plot holes or over powered females.

    C'mon, man, no need for that. And for your information, I nitpick every SW film, not just TLJ, its just that TLJ as sooooooo much more to nitpick. And really? Females? You think that is an actual issue? Grow up

    Me grow up when you take these movies as something that has to be executed flawlessly to be worth anyone’s time? I was pointing at the ridiculousness of your standards nothing more. Read into it how you want.
  • Cane_danko wrote: »
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    Well, some of you will nitpick these new movies to death. For those of us that enjoy them i guess our best bet is to just laugh at you because you spend so much time picking apart these movies that they never really had a chance for you to enjoy them anyway. It is probably best you stick with marvel where there are no plot holes or over powered females.

    C'mon, man, no need for that. And for your information, I nitpick every SW film, not just TLJ, its just that TLJ as sooooooo much more to nitpick. And really? Females? You think that is an actual issue? Grow up

    Me grow up when you take these movies as something that has to be executed flawlessly to be worth anyone’s time? I was pointing at the ridiculousness of your standards nothing more. Read into it how you want.

    It's ridiculous to have high standards and expect great things from Star Wars? Nobody's expecting a flawless movie, that's both impossible and hyperbolic. What many who don't like TLJ expected was better from Star Wars, a franchise we love. It's like when you have a child. When he messes up, you punish him and scold him because you know that they need to learn and that they can be better. If you didn't truly care, you would just leave the kid to his own devices and not bother to discipline him. That's what's happening here. Sometimes, being the biggest fan of something means being it's biggest critic. To just accept whatever Star Wars content we get without examining it with a critical eye is foolish. To lower our standards regarding Star Wars is also foolish. Star Wars can be great when done properly. I, and many others just expect more from this franchise and hold it to a higher standard than you and others. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but I would try to be a bit more open minded about those who don't like The Last Jedi.
    Heroes are born on the battlefront... especially if you play the objective.
    kui7ctmgyzll.png
  • Cane_danko wrote: »
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    Well, some of you will nitpick these new movies to death. For those of us that enjoy them i guess our best bet is to just laugh at you because you spend so much time picking apart these movies that they never really had a chance for you to enjoy them anyway. It is probably best you stick with marvel where there are no plot holes or over powered females.

    C'mon, man, no need for that. And for your information, I nitpick every SW film, not just TLJ, its just that TLJ as sooooooo much more to nitpick. And really? Females? You think that is an actual issue? Grow up

    Me grow up when you take these movies as something that has to be executed flawlessly to be worth anyone’s time? I was pointing at the ridiculousness of your standards nothing more. Read into it how you want.

    No one expects flawless movies as that is physically impossible. Everyone knows that all SW movies are flawed, yet we still love them. We just don't like the ST and gave the reasons as to why, you obviously disagree and there is nothing wrong with that, but when you try to throw us into the pit by stating that we just don't like it due to it having an "over powered female" you should grow up
  • Cane_danko wrote: »
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    Well, some of you will nitpick these new movies to death. For those of us that enjoy them i guess our best bet is to just laugh at you because you spend so much time picking apart these movies that they never really had a chance for you to enjoy them anyway. It is probably best you stick with marvel where there are no plot holes or over powered females.

    C'mon, man, no need for that. And for your information, I nitpick every SW film, not just TLJ, its just that TLJ as sooooooo much more to nitpick. And really? Females? You think that is an actual issue? Grow up

    Me grow up when you take these movies as something that has to be executed flawlessly to be worth anyone’s time? I was pointing at the ridiculousness of your standards nothing more. Read into it how you want.

    It's ridiculous to have high standards and expect great things from Star Wars? Nobody's expecting a flawless movie, that's both impossible and hyperbolic. What many who don't like TLJ expected was better from Star Wars, a franchise we love. It's like when you have a child. When he messes up, you punish him and scold him because you know that they need to learn and that they can be better. If you didn't truly care, you would just leave the kid to his own devices and not bother to discipline him. That's what's happening here. Sometimes, being the biggest fan of something means being it's biggest critic. To just accept whatever Star Wars content we get without examining it with a critical eye is foolish. To lower our standards regarding Star Wars is also foolish. Star Wars can be great when done properly. I, and many others just expect more from this franchise and hold it to a higher standard than you and others. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but I would try to be a bit more open minded about those who don't like The Last Jedi.

    Hahaha, jinx...
  • Cane_danko wrote: »
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    Well, some of you will nitpick these new movies to death. For those of us that enjoy them i guess our best bet is to just laugh at you because you spend so much time picking apart these movies that they never really had a chance for you to enjoy them anyway. It is probably best you stick with marvel where there are no plot holes or over powered females.

    C'mon, man, no need for that. And for your information, I nitpick every SW film, not just TLJ, its just that TLJ as sooooooo much more to nitpick. And really? Females? You think that is an actual issue? Grow up

    Me grow up when you take these movies as something that has to be executed flawlessly to be worth anyone’s time? I was pointing at the ridiculousness of your standards nothing more. Read into it how you want.

    It's ridiculous to have high standards and expect great things from Star Wars? Nobody's expecting a flawless movie, that's both impossible and hyperbolic. What many who don't like TLJ expected was better from Star Wars, a franchise we love. It's like when you have a child. When he messes up, you punish him and scold him because you know that they need to learn and that they can be better. If you didn't truly care, you would just leave the kid to his own devices and not bother to discipline him. That's what's happening here. Sometimes, being the biggest fan of something means being it's biggest critic. To just accept whatever Star Wars content we get without examining it with a critical eye is foolish. To lower our standards regarding Star Wars is also foolish. Star Wars can be great when done properly. I, and many others just expect more from this franchise and hold it to a higher standard than you and others. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but I would try to be a bit more open minded about those who don't like The Last Jedi.

    Hahaha, jinx...

    Darn, now I owe you a soda....
    Heroes are born on the battlefront... especially if you play the objective.
    kui7ctmgyzll.png
  • I honestly don’t even listen to Disney sw Haters. Y’all cry and complain saying “Disney ruined Star Wars, tlj/tfa and spinoffs are horrible” “childhood is ruined” all that whiny stuff😂 you are the same people who said this about the prequels and George, why else do you think George left? Plus that 4bil was a bonus. So which is it did George ruin Star Wars with the pt or is it Disney?? MAKE YOUR MINDS UP PEOPLE.
  • I honestly don’t even listen to Disney sw Haters. Y’all cry and complain saying “Disney ruined Star Wars, tlj/tfa and spinoffs are horrible” “childhood is ruined” all that whiny stuff😂 you are the same people who said this about the prequels and George, why else do you think George left? Plus that 4bil was a bonus. So which is it did George ruin Star Wars with the pt or is it Disney?? MAKE YOUR MINDS UP PEOPLE.

    I kinda wasn't alive back then for the Prequels, sooo...
    Heroes are born on the battlefront... especially if you play the objective.
    kui7ctmgyzll.png
  • I honestly don’t even listen to Disney sw Haters. Y’all cry and complain saying “Disney ruined Star Wars, tlj/tfa and spinoffs are horrible” “childhood is ruined” all that whiny stuff😂 you are the same people who said this about the prequels and George, why else do you think George left? Plus that 4bil was a bonus. So which is it did George ruin Star Wars with the pt or is it Disney?? MAKE YOUR MINDS UP PEOPLE.

    I kinda wasn't alive back then for the Prequels, sooo...
    Then this isn’t directed towards you so?
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