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Having an argument with a friend about Reys character. Opinions?

2

Replies

  • Draxin
    245 posts Member
    It really boggles my mind that people think this trilogy will be saved if Rey is a clone or a creation of Palpatine (?!?). Thank god these people aren’t actually writing movies and are confined to video game forum fan fiction. They must be the same people who were convinced that Snoke was Mace Windu or whatever.

    Of course we dont think he's mace windu... he's obviously the dreaded darth jar jar binks

    Haha. Like, the people who are like “Rey cannot have performed that mind trick, she is a Mary Sue” are the same people who are like “yes, Maul got cut in half and fell down an endless abyss but now he has robot legs, so he’s all better.”

    I don't know a single person who think's Maul is better off without his other half and still understands that Rey is a poorly written character.

    I would argue that it both strengthens and weakens him at the same time.
    Hi.
  • Draxin wrote: »
    It really boggles my mind that people think this trilogy will be saved if Rey is a clone or a creation of Palpatine (?!?). Thank god these people aren’t actually writing movies and are confined to video game forum fan fiction. They must be the same people who were convinced that Snoke was Mace Windu or whatever.

    Of course we dont think he's mace windu... he's obviously the dreaded darth jar jar binks

    Haha. Like, the people who are like “Rey cannot have performed that mind trick, she is a Mary Sue” are the same people who are like “yes, Maul got cut in half and fell down an endless abyss but now he has robot legs, so he’s all better.”

    I don't know a single person who think's Maul is better off without his other half and still understands that Rey is a poorly written character.

    I would argue that it both strengthens and weakens him at the same time.

    I’m just saying the threshold of disbelief in this community is hilarious.

    It is unrealistic for Rey to be able to use the force...

    ...unless Palpatine went to Bespin and found Luke’s severed hand and used it to clone him and that clone became Rey(?) That would justify her force powers for sure.
  • RyanK388
    1860 posts Member
    I could do without having her been added to the Star Wars galaxy

    In attempt to make something original Disney made new characters and they’re not doing so well because since they make new characters they don’t have to give George Lucas anything moneywise because I heard that when he sold them he kept some rights to you original characters so they have to give them like money when they make money off the original characters which is why they are killing them off
  • Chem0
    182 posts Member
    Bad in which case?
    Fighting wise: Good, but somehow already knows how to fight.
    Character development bad: Movie 1, outflies First order pilots, then moves on to mind trick First Order trooper as first use of force, then outfights Crylo in 1v1 battle.
    Theory which will be explained in ep.9
    1. Rey is clone of luke ( through the hand cut off in bespin) and palps got hold of it and used to advantage. This would explain double mirror scene in TLJ.
    2. Created by good ol palps. (Just like Anakin was) Now that Rey is at her training and easily influenced, that's why Palpatine is coming back into the picture with Thrawn.

    Anakin wasn't created by Palpatine.
  • bfloo
    15918 posts Member
    Draxin wrote: »
    It really boggles my mind that people think this trilogy will be saved if Rey is a clone or a creation of Palpatine (?!?). Thank god these people aren’t actually writing movies and are confined to video game forum fan fiction. They must be the same people who were convinced that Snoke was Mace Windu or whatever.

    Of course we dont think he's mace windu... he's obviously the dreaded darth jar jar binks

    Haha. Like, the people who are like “Rey cannot have performed that mind trick, she is a Mary Sue” are the same people who are like “yes, Maul got cut in half and fell down an endless abyss but now he has robot legs, so he’s all better.”

    I don't know a single person who think's Maul is better off without his other half and still understands that Rey is a poorly written character.

    I would argue that it both strengthens and weakens him at the same time.

    We generally agree that it was dumb bringing Maul back, but he was at least used well.

    The Maul season had some of the best writing on the show It was the only one I found actually memorable. Other seasons had some good arcs as well before you cw fanatics assault me.

    Maul was the only rebelz villain who actually consistently bought tension to the show. Thrawn was a great villain as well, but took his time to actually do anything.

    Swolo bombed, so I doubt they are going to explore that plot line any further.
    The Knights of Gareth are Eternal

    Pirate of the Knights of Gareth

    h846398gb27k.png


  • Maul was a gimmick to bring more attention to the clone wars show
    Emotion yet Peace, Ignorance yet Knowledge, Passion yet Serenity, Chaos yet Harmony, Death yet the Force
  • Laser921
    2131 posts Member
    edited August 14
    I saw someone say what was Luke's hardship? How about learning your papa is second in command of the Empire, a butcher of children, murderer of multiple jedi, oh and just to spice things up, he took your hand. Also very limited training. Yes Rey had limited training too but it took Luke what, 4 years to get any where combat wise with the Force. (yes one can argue about the whole saber fight being slower in the original but keep your head \, of course they were, they used actually props then for the lightsaber, not just a handle with the blade being cgi.)

    So in essence, for me, for Rey to be redeemed in my view, Episode 9 better flesh out more of a backstory for her and show some weakness on her part. Kinda like how Luke was cocky and overconfident on Bespin but then humbled for ROTJ.

    Side note, all heroes should get a fourth ability and Lukes should be akin to passionate strike only call it vengeful strike, like when he cuts of Vaders hand.
    Post edited by Laser921 on
    Emotion yet Peace, Ignorance yet Knowledge, Passion yet Serenity, Chaos yet Harmony, Death yet the Force
  • Just nerf REY. It'll be ok.
    21 years in the making... the wait is over. Buy RESIDENT EVIL 2 now!
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  • ROMG4
    2955 posts Member
    lerodemmy wrote: »
    Just nerf REY. It'll be ok.
    Nah just delete Rey too strong
    OOM-9 FOR BATTLEFRONT 2
    OOM-9 Hero Concept by AzelfandQuilava
    https://i.redd.it/uleh1g22xrhz.png

    OOM-9 Canonical Material Check-List:

    Star Wars Episode 1: The Phantom Menace
    William Shakespeare's The Phantom of Menace: Star Wars Part the First
    Ultimate Star Wars (Reference Guide)
    Star Wars: On the Front Lines (Reference Guide)
    Darth Maul: "Who is supervising the search for the Gungan cities?" Nute Gunray: "Commander OOM-Nine." Darth Maul: "A droid. The predecessor of your inept B-Ones." Rune Haako: "A superior droid, Lord Maul. Viceroy Gunray's personal guard."
    The OOM-9 Thread
    https://battlefront-forums.ea.com/discussion/76756/the-oom-9-thread-9-9-the-phantom-droid/p1
  • HoverBoyBen
    465 posts Member
    edited August 14
    Lyc4n wrote: »
    I keep saying she is a bad character learning to use the force just because the plot needs her to in situations and being stronger than kylo. Rather than developing these abilities.

    What does everyone else think?

    rey suck's, she has no jedi training and is able to wield a lightsaber like a jedi master... that's bull. Disney has destroyed star wars along with everything luca's has done to make the franchise great.... in my opinion the so called new trilogy is a poorly made fan fiction made by a 2 year old... and is not part of the star wars universe. for me Star wars ended with episode 6...... i do like the clone wars, rebels, rogue one and i even like the solo movie. but the ST sucks big time.

    plus i hate the ST with a passion.... i for see episode 9 FAILING and sucking just like episode 7 and 8. by the way the new trilogy is a rip off of the OT.
  • RyanK388 wrote: »
    I could do without having her been added to the Star Wars galaxy

    In attempt to make something original Disney made new characters and they’re not doing so well because since they make new characters they don’t have to give George Lucas anything moneywise because I heard that when he sold them he kept some rights to you original characters so they have to give them like money when they make money off the original characters which is why they are killing them off

    if thats true..... it just opened my eyes even more because now everything makes since now....Disney is trying to delete everything luca's has done. disney is the darkside
  • bfloo
    15918 posts Member
    lerodemmy wrote: »
    Just nerf REY. It'll be ok.

    Nerf hammer incoming
    The Knights of Gareth are Eternal

    Pirate of the Knights of Gareth

    h846398gb27k.png


  • ROMG4
    2955 posts Member
    bfloo wrote: »
    lerodemmy wrote: »
    Just nerf REY. It'll be ok.

    Nerf hammer incoming

    YOU SHALL FAIL!

    tumblr_nx90s1zKiJ1shh9ceo3_500.gif
    OOM-9 FOR BATTLEFRONT 2
    OOM-9 Hero Concept by AzelfandQuilava
    https://i.redd.it/uleh1g22xrhz.png

    OOM-9 Canonical Material Check-List:

    Star Wars Episode 1: The Phantom Menace
    William Shakespeare's The Phantom of Menace: Star Wars Part the First
    Ultimate Star Wars (Reference Guide)
    Star Wars: On the Front Lines (Reference Guide)
    Darth Maul: "Who is supervising the search for the Gungan cities?" Nute Gunray: "Commander OOM-Nine." Darth Maul: "A droid. The predecessor of your inept B-Ones." Rune Haako: "A superior droid, Lord Maul. Viceroy Gunray's personal guard."
    The OOM-9 Thread
    https://battlefront-forums.ea.com/discussion/76756/the-oom-9-thread-9-9-the-phantom-droid/p1
  • OcDoc
    1984 posts Member
    bfloo wrote: »
    Wolfman91 wrote: »
    Appl3corps wrote: »
    I like the comment that she is basically this generations Luke, because really, she is no more a Mary Sue than Luke was.

    In IV, we see Luke go from driving a car (landspeeder) to getting shoved in a bar, to clumsily blocking blaster shots without seeing them. Then he plays Tarzan and is gunning down ships with the Falcon's guns, before jumping in an X-Wing for the first time and expertly dogfighting (when would he have done that on Tatooine?) and nailing the trench run.

    Then in V we see him go from clumsily lopping the arm off a Wampa to holding his own against one of the greatest dueling Jedi of all time. Yes he got beat, but if you really think about it, there is NO WAY he should have been able to do anything against Vader. We never see him go through any lightsaber training in ANY way. He does more Tarzan impersonations and lifts rocks.

    I'm not trying to say the OT movies were crap or anything like that, they are my favorites, grew up with them. But if you objectively look at them, they have just as poor character development as any other movie in the franchise. You think people were saying oh yeah, I totally see the struggle Luke went through and all this training when Empire came out?

    Maybe it was easier then just to accept Star Wars as a fun film and form of escapism, instead of trying to dissect every little thing and declare if it makes sense or not. In reality, none of it makes sense. It's a fantasy story in a fantasy universe. It's fun, she's a fun character, they are fun movies that I enjoy watching, and I can't wait to see how Episode IX turns out.

    But she IS more Mary Sue than anyone in this franchise. I'll just paste my post from other thread:

    When it comes to Luke, he struggles much more than we think. He was beaten up by sand people - Obi Wan has to rescue him. He was attacked by criminal in Mos Eisley cantina- Obi Wan saves him again. Later he was saved by Solo, who cleared his six o'clock before he destroyed the Death Star. He would die without his help.

    Empire Strikes Back - Solo rescues Luke again. Luke struggles with the Jedi training, Luke fails in the cave. Despite having pretty solid training (not prequel like, but still) he loses to Vader. He went to rescue his friends and ends up being the one who needs to be rescued.

    ROTJ - Luke finally grows up, became badass Jedi and responsible human being. He is still not flawless, but embraces his weakneses, saves his father (and Vader/Anakin saves him) despite Yoda and Obi Wan telling him to kill his father, he goes his own way, succeeds and becomes a legend.

    That is why everyone can relate to Luke. He struggles, he needs guidance, he fails and only then he finally grows to become something more. Rey is almost perfect from the beginning. She is self made, owns thugs, she escapes on her own, she fixes hyperdrive, she wins against experianced and talented force user despite having no training at all. She learns everything from Kylo's mind, uses mind tricks, she's amazing without reason. She may not be perfect, but she is very close to perfection from the very beginning.

    I don't know what kind of messege they want to send to young people. You don't need to struggle, you don't need to train, just be a woman and everything is possible? I dunno.

    And that's a shame cause she could be so much better. I really liked her during the first half of TFA. I was never prejudiced against female lead, nothing like that. She just turned out to be really bland, boring and it's difficult to relate to her even for kids, unless they can relate to someone only because she/he has the same genitals.

    Sabine Wren has Rey beat in the Mary Sue department.

    How so? Sabine trained her whole life to acquire her skills, as all Mandalorians do. Rey on the other hand is somehow good at everything she tries, even things she shouldn’t have been able to learn while being a simple scavenger on a backwater planet, like piloting a Starship and speaking Shyriwook despite no Wookiee’s living on Jakku. Then just hours after having the force awaken within her, she successfully mind tricks someone, something that took Luke years to master by comparison. Then she beats Kylo in a saber fight, a trained Dark Jedi with powerful Skywalker blood.

    Rey. Has. Been. An. Orphan. Child. Alone. On. A. Dangerous. Desert. Planet. For. Over. A. Decade.

    She has literally never had a family. That’s her hardship.

    I mean, I see why people are mad at her character if they miss this. I felt like the movie told me that in the first five minutes. So all this stuff about lack of hardship has never resonated with me.

    I mean what is your definition of hardship for Luke? That he had to carry a muppet on his back during his week of Jedi training? Do you want more scenes of Rey jogging?

    Would love some more scenes of Rey jogging. Keep the good ideas coming 😉

  • Trazy
    35 posts Member
    I lurve Rey's character. This is coming from the fanboy kid that saw the original 1977 movie in the theater.
    Lurve You <3
  • Trazy wrote: »
    I lurve Rey's character. This is coming from the fanboy kid that saw the original 1977 movie in the theater.

    I see you are a man of culture.
  • Laser921
    2131 posts Member
    jordi1337 wrote: »
    she was the single worst character in star wars until every new episode 8 character got introduced. worst writing ive seen on a high budget movie.

    Hmmm, I think Rose may have her beat as the worst
    Emotion yet Peace, Ignorance yet Knowledge, Passion yet Serenity, Chaos yet Harmony, Death yet the Force
  • ROMG4 wrote: »
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    Debate something that is totally subjective? Okay. Let’s do it.

    Sigh, subjectivity my most hated blanket/cannot critique(!) argument shield. We are discussing the writing quality of the ST subjectivity only allows you to like something it doesn't keep anything from being rightfully criticized. If I might go off-topic for a moment. I have to say I truly dislike the rise of the "My Feelings" argument on the internet because it's the death of analytical debate. Because when subjectivity takes hold discussions to revolve around discussing feelings and not the subject of the discussion itself. Subjectivity has its place as the user’s feelings about a subject are what often drive them to start a debate. But it is objectivity that gives the debate/discussion its name a discussion entirely around subjectivity is no discussion at all it’s just feelings being thrown around.
    Rey is awesome. She is not a mary sue. She is a survivor and a scavenger and learned to fight while being nothing more than a street urchin who had to fight in order to survive.
    Basic outline of her character, which is an outline I do like. There's plenty of really interesting character paths you could take with a character like that. Unfortunately we are talking about the development Rey has been given right now
    She learned to fly by piloting various ships around jakku as she said in tfa.
    This would have been fine, except for the fact she's able to completely outfly the trained from birth TIE Pilots with advanced maneuvers and stuff that not even Han or Lando pulled off when they were in control. This is especially noteworthy because she said she's never even flown the Falcon before, it would be like if I got control of a Monster Truck and completely surpassed every experienced Monster Truck driver because I've driven Cars before.

    I know the film also had Rey say she had no idea how she pulled it off, but even then it doesn't matter if the film acknowledges the impossible display of skill for her level of in-experience because it's still an impossible display of experience and sheer skill. Now you might argue "Well tell that to Super Racer Anakin" in which you might have a case, however. The film makes it very clear that he has been forced to race many, many, times before so by now Anakin has amassed quite a deal of Pod Racing experience, the film also makes it clear Anakin has failed or just barely survived multiple times in other races. This backstory of failure instills the tension Rey's Falcon scene lacks in that even though Anakin is experienced in pod racing, and he knows his competition he can fail, and even his skills as a Pod Racer aren't as incredibly impressive as Rey's piloting. I will condone Rey's knowledge of ships because it does make sense for her, and I didn't have any problem with her understanding of the modifications to Han's ship. I mean she knew the person who ordered the modification and would know the type of modifications he would do to his ships
    She beat kylo because kylo was wounded, imbalanced, and thought he had the upper hand while underestimating the force working through rey.
    Still an incredibly bad story beat to do. Imagine if Sauron was defeated by Aragorn in Fellowship of the ring. While it can work having the Hero defeat the villain especially at stage one of the Hero's development is generally pretty bad, TFA's ending is no exception
    As far as how powerful rey is in the force, she has not done anything besides mind trick and move rocks.
    From what we had learned in the EU and extrapolated from the films, the Mind Trick takes a great deal of skill and knowledge to perform, having her do it out of the blue makes no sense. Yes, I am aware some tie-in novel explained that she scooped the information out of Kylo's head....Somehow when he did the mind probe on her. However since it's unexplained in the film it's still a massive plot hole nonetheless. Now you might say then how can I factor in the EU information? Simple we only see Luke use in EP6 after he has undergone years of training, thus we can tell that it's something that took him a very long time to learn. The EU information collaborates this so Rey learning it in a flash is a violation of the previous established ground. The EU information on the Mind-Trick confirms the mind trick's difficulty and is a supplement to the films, for Rey you have to read a novel to understand how she even did what she did.

    Also those weren't some little rocks. While official calculations aren't known to my knowledge, the weight she lifted was easily in excess of SEVERAL HUNDRED TONES. More weight then we've ever seen a jedi lift in the films EVER BEFORE. Most importantly she did it practically carefree we see her in the scene just calmly talking with people and giving them hugs whilst keeping the rocks suspended high in the air with practically no strain. That's a huge display of power that makes Yoda look weak as he visibly strained lifting the X-Wing out of the bog, deflecting dooku's debris he had fall on him and threw at him in Ep2 before he would struggle to keep Anakin and Obi-Wan from being crushed by a pilar a few minutes later

    https://www.reddit.com/r/theydidthemath/comments/9nekjr/request_what_is_the_weight_of_the_rocks_rey/
    Does it really matter? I don’t think it does.
    Yes, if you care about a well written and developed story that is logically coherent and in-line with previous works in this 12 film series.

    I mean, like it or not, an audience’s reaction to a story is subjective. My experience of Rey in the ST was that I was excited to see her story play out within the first five minutes of TFA.

    Those scenes of her sorting through the wreckage of the imperial destroyer, making the bread in her broken down AT AT house. They’re great images. And great writing.

    Also, the John Williams Rey theme is one of the best in all of Star Wars.

    So I was just in it. Into her enough that I don’t care how heavy the rocks she lifts are. Just like you’re into Luke Skywalker enough to not care that somehow there’s a dude named Luke Skywalker “hiding out” on Darth Vader’s home planet and nobody is like....hey, I bet this guy is related to Anakin Skywalker who would probably pay anything to find him and kill him.

    I have bad news for the people who go over Star Wars lore with a fine tooth comb:

    They just make this stuff up as they go along.

    The real question I find interesting is: why don’t people give Rey the same benefit of the doubt they give the rest of the logic flaws of the Star Wars universe?

    Why do they bend over backwards to talk about Luke’s hardships but can’t see that Rey’s hardships are nearly exactly the same, beat for beat?

    That’s a thing worth investigating. And sometimes you find some pretty ugly answers in that investigation.
    jordi1337 wrote: »
    she was the single worst character in star wars until every new episode 8 character got introduced. worst writing ive seen on a high budget movie.

    Worst writing in a big budget move? You must’ve never watched a DC movie. Or another Star Wars movie for that matter. Harrison wasn’t going to JJ and telling him “you can write these lines, but you sure can’t say them.”
  • ROMG4
    2955 posts Member
    edited August 14
    Just like you’re into Luke Skywalker enough to not care that somehow there’s a dude named Luke Skywalker “hiding out” on Darth Vader’s home planet and nobody is like....hey, I bet this guy is related to Anakin Skywalker who would probably pay anything to find him and kill him.
    According to canon Star Wars stats there's about 50 Quadrillion sentient life in the galaxy on 50 million worlds. Heck even without the bloody stats and just the overview of the galaxy we see in the films. Do you realize how many people would be named Luke Skywalker? Not to mention Luke wasn't even the name Anakin was going to give him. Padme named him Luke. So now you would have to go by Skywalker to find Luke and of which there would be millions of people with Skywalker in their name at least

    Yes, let's just go kill some random dude with the name skywalker in it, even though nobody knows Vader's real identity, wouldn't be looking into a backwater planet, and Vader believed they were dead for over a decade and a half. Just look at how common names and surnames are in USA a country with only 350 million people, now multiply that over a galactic spam. Not a valid argument

    I mean, like it or not, an audience’s reaction to a story is subjective. My experience of Rey in the ST was that I was excited to see her story play out within the first five minutes of TFA.
    Those scenes of her sorting through the wreckage of the imperial destroyer, making the bread in her broken down AT AT house. They’re great images. And great writing.
    Also, the John Williams Rey theme is one of the best in all of Star Wars.
    Oh yes fantastic visuals, I loved them when I first saw them. The planet felt vast, the aesthetic fit the OT, it was awesome. There's nothing wrong with that and like I said Rey's character had great potential but once she meets up with Finn that's when she stops being a character and becomes a plot device.
    I have bad news for the people who go over Star Wars lore with a fine tooth comb:
    They just make this stuff up as they go along.
    Who would have thought
    The real question I find interesting is: why don’t people give Rey the same benefit of the doubt they give the rest of the logic flaws of the Star Wars universe?
    Why do they bend over backwards to talk about Luke’s hardships but can’t see that Rey’s hardships are nearly exactly the same, beat for beat?
    That’s a thing worth investigating. And sometimes you find some pretty ugly answers in that investigation.
    She's literally a highly idealized version of Luke Skywalker of course it's near beat for beat, I mean TFA is a remake of ANH. The problem with Rey is they keep pushing the logic flaws in your face with ridiculous action scenes and making them integral parts of the movie. This is in part because the writers simply don't care about building up a story. They want to get to the action as quick as bloody possible. Quiet moments, intrigue, and character growth don't fit the "Must have action every 5-6 minutes" quota. They also leave things super vague as possible to plug in mystery box hooks for the sequel or EU stuff.

    I mean I still remember going to wookieepedia a few days after seeing TFA and just totally being amazed when I realized how much was left vague during the movie and how much I assumed was wrong because their explainations are blink and you'll miss it level quick. For example I thought hosnian prime was Coruscant and the resistance a recognized military branch of the NR. The Writing for the ST is practically nonexistent and that's the worst level of writing you can get
    OOM-9 FOR BATTLEFRONT 2
    OOM-9 Hero Concept by AzelfandQuilava
    https://i.redd.it/uleh1g22xrhz.png

    OOM-9 Canonical Material Check-List:

    Star Wars Episode 1: The Phantom Menace
    William Shakespeare's The Phantom of Menace: Star Wars Part the First
    Ultimate Star Wars (Reference Guide)
    Star Wars: On the Front Lines (Reference Guide)
    Darth Maul: "Who is supervising the search for the Gungan cities?" Nute Gunray: "Commander OOM-Nine." Darth Maul: "A droid. The predecessor of your inept B-Ones." Rune Haako: "A superior droid, Lord Maul. Viceroy Gunray's personal guard."
    The OOM-9 Thread
    https://battlefront-forums.ea.com/discussion/76756/the-oom-9-thread-9-9-the-phantom-droid/p1
  • ROMG4 wrote: »
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    Debate something that is totally subjective? Okay. Let’s do it.

    Sigh, subjectivity my most hated blanket/cannot critique(!) argument shield. We are discussing the writing quality of the ST subjectivity only allows you to like something it doesn't keep anything from being rightfully criticized. If I might go off-topic for a moment. I have to say I truly dislike the rise of the "My Feelings" argument on the internet because it's the death of analytical debate. Because when subjectivity takes hold discussions to revolve around discussing feelings and not the subject of the discussion itself. Subjectivity has its place as the user’s feelings about a subject are what often drive them to start a debate. But it is objectivity that gives the debate/discussion its name a discussion entirely around subjectivity is no discussion at all it’s just feelings being thrown around.
    Rey is awesome. She is not a mary sue. She is a survivor and a scavenger and learned to fight while being nothing more than a street urchin who had to fight in order to survive.
    Basic outline of her character, which is an outline I do like. There's plenty of really interesting character paths you could take with a character like that. Unfortunately we are talking about the development Rey has been given right now
    She learned to fly by piloting various ships around jakku as she said in tfa.
    This would have been fine, except for the fact she's able to completely outfly the trained from birth TIE Pilots with advanced maneuvers and stuff that not even Han or Lando pulled off when they were in control. This is especially noteworthy because she said she's never even flown the Falcon before, it would be like if I got control of a Monster Truck and completely surpassed every experienced Monster Truck driver because I've driven Cars before.

    I know the film also had Rey say she had no idea how she pulled it off, but even then it doesn't matter if the film acknowledges the impossible display of skill for her level of in-experience because it's still an impossible display of experience and sheer skill. Now you might argue "Well tell that to Super Racer Anakin" in which you might have a case, however. The film makes it very clear that he has been forced to race many, many, times before so by now Anakin has amassed quite a deal of Pod Racing experience, the film also makes it clear Anakin has failed or just barely survived multiple times in other races. This backstory of failure instills the tension Rey's Falcon scene lacks in that even though Anakin is experienced in pod racing, and he knows his competition he can fail, and even his skills as a Pod Racer aren't as incredibly impressive as Rey's piloting. I will condone Rey's knowledge of ships because it does make sense for her, and I didn't have any problem with her understanding of the modifications to Han's ship. I mean she knew the person who ordered the modification and would know the type of modifications he would do to his ships
    She beat kylo because kylo was wounded, imbalanced, and thought he had the upper hand while underestimating the force working through rey.
    Still an incredibly bad story beat to do. Imagine if Sauron was defeated by Aragorn in Fellowship of the ring. While it can work having the Hero defeat the villain especially at stage one of the Hero's development is generally pretty bad, TFA's ending is no exception
    As far as how powerful rey is in the force, she has not done anything besides mind trick and move rocks.
    From what we had learned in the EU and extrapolated from the films, the Mind Trick takes a great deal of skill and knowledge to perform, having her do it out of the blue makes no sense. Yes, I am aware some tie-in novel explained that she scooped the information out of Kylo's head....Somehow when he did the mind probe on her. However since it's unexplained in the film it's still a massive plot hole nonetheless. Now you might say then how can I factor in the EU information? Simple we only see Luke use in EP6 after he has undergone years of training, thus we can tell that it's something that took him a very long time to learn. The EU information collaborates this so Rey learning it in a flash is a violation of the previous established ground. The EU information on the Mind-Trick confirms the mind trick's difficulty and is a supplement to the films, for Rey you have to read a novel to understand how she even did what she did.

    Also those weren't some little rocks. While official calculations aren't known to my knowledge, the weight she lifted was easily in excess of SEVERAL HUNDRED TONES. More weight then we've ever seen a jedi lift in the films EVER BEFORE. Most importantly she did it practically carefree we see her in the scene just calmly talking with people and giving them hugs whilst keeping the rocks suspended high in the air with practically no strain. That's a huge display of power that makes Yoda look weak as he visibly strained lifting the X-Wing out of the bog, deflecting dooku's debris he had fall on him and threw at him in Ep2 before he would struggle to keep Anakin and Obi-Wan from being crushed by a pilar a few minutes later

    https://www.reddit.com/r/theydidthemath/comments/9nekjr/request_what_is_the_weight_of_the_rocks_rey/
    Does it really matter? I don’t think it does.
    Yes, if you care about a well written and developed story that is logically coherent and in-line with previous works in this 12 film series.

    I mean, like it or not, an audience’s reaction to a story is subjective. My experience of Rey in the ST was that I was excited to see her story play out within the first five minutes of TFA.

    Those scenes of her sorting through the wreckage of the imperial destroyer, making the bread in her broken down AT AT house. They’re great images. And great writing.

    Also, the John Williams Rey theme is one of the best in all of Star Wars.

    So I was just in it. Into her enough that I don’t care how heavy the rocks she lifts are. Just like you’re into Luke Skywalker enough to not care that somehow there’s a dude named Luke Skywalker “hiding out” on Darth Vader’s home planet and nobody is like....hey, I bet this guy is related to Anakin Skywalker who would probably pay anything to find him and kill him.

    I have bad news for the people who go over Star Wars lore with a fine tooth comb:

    They just make this stuff up as they go along.

    The real question I find interesting is: why don’t people give Rey the same benefit of the doubt they give the rest of the logic flaws of the Star Wars universe?

    Why do they bend over backwards to talk about Luke’s hardships but can’t see that Rey’s hardships are nearly exactly the same, beat for beat?

    That’s a thing worth investigating. And sometimes you find some pretty ugly answers in that investigation.
    jordi1337 wrote: »
    she was the single worst character in star wars until every new episode 8 character got introduced. worst writing ive seen on a high budget movie.

    Worst writing in a big budget move? You must’ve never watched a DC movie. Or another Star Wars movie for that matter. Harrison wasn’t going to JJ and telling him “you can write these lines, but you sure can’t say them.”

    Look, I'm going to put this as easy as possible so that it cannot be misconstrued.

    When going over a fictional character, it usually depends on that characters development throughout the story in which they belong.

    People usually like a character more than others because they can RELATE to that character. People find it easier to relate to a character when that person has a development throughout life close to the same as that character. Though the level of difficulty may not be the same, you know what I mean.

    Many people love luke because he failed many times throughout his development of character. (Luke failed to save his aunt and uncle, cant protect himself in the cantina, cant save Ben, took months to years of training to only still have difficulty lifting an Xwing. And so on.)

    Down to it, when people say hardship they mean hardship throughout the story. If one cant see that other than the first 6 minutes that Rey doesnt fail once, then theres no hope in an intelligent debate.
  • Laser921
    2131 posts Member
    All in all, the sequels are just not written very well. Maybe the story itself but all the background is crap. Like the Resistance? Just a carbon copy of the Rebels, First Order is the Empire. Id be more ok with the sequels even if it was same storyline with Rey but we had the New Republic, like it was in Legends, you know, a proper government and military vs the Imperial Remnant/First Order. But know, TFA feels like the exact same plot progression as new hope and honestly, Last Jedi is a boring movie until the end. It just doesnt have the same feel.
    Emotion yet Peace, Ignorance yet Knowledge, Passion yet Serenity, Chaos yet Harmony, Death yet the Force
  • Draxin wrote: »
    It really boggles my mind that people think this trilogy will be saved if Rey is a clone or a creation of Palpatine (?!?). Thank god these people aren’t actually writing movies and are confined to video game forum fan fiction. They must be the same people who were convinced that Snoke was Mace Windu or whatever.

    Of course we dont think he's mace windu... he's obviously the dreaded darth jar jar binks

    Haha. Like, the people who are like “Rey cannot have performed that mind trick, she is a Mary Sue” are the same people who are like “yes, Maul got cut in half and fell down an endless abyss but now he has robot legs, so he’s all better.”

    I don't know a single person who think's Maul is better off without his other half and still understands that Rey is a poorly written character.

    I would argue that it both strengthens and weakens him at the same time.

    I’m just saying the threshold of disbelief in this community is hilarious.

    It is unrealistic for Rey to be able to use the force...

    ...unless Palpatine went to Bespin and found Luke’s severed hand and used it to clone him and that clone became Rey(?) That would justify her force powers for sure.

    Her being a clone doesn't give her an all-out pass for everything she immediately picks up and perfects without training or previous expertise. I don't care if she's a clone, a wound in the Force, a Force God, or the child of either Leia or Luke. She's OP and there is no reasonable explanation that justifies her character.
    Hi.
  • ROMG4 wrote: »
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    Debate something that is totally subjective? Okay. Let’s do it.

    Sigh, subjectivity my most hated blanket/cannot critique(!) argument shield. We are discussing the writing quality of the ST subjectivity only allows you to like something it doesn't keep anything from being rightfully criticized. If I might go off-topic for a moment. I have to say I truly dislike the rise of the "My Feelings" argument on the internet because it's the death of analytical debate. Because when subjectivity takes hold discussions to revolve around discussing feelings and not the subject of the discussion itself. Subjectivity has its place as the user’s feelings about a subject are what often drive them to start a debate. But it is objectivity that gives the debate/discussion its name a discussion entirely around subjectivity is no discussion at all it’s just feelings being thrown around.
    Rey is awesome. She is not a mary sue. She is a survivor and a scavenger and learned to fight while being nothing more than a street urchin who had to fight in order to survive.
    Basic outline of her character, which is an outline I do like. There's plenty of really interesting character paths you could take with a character like that. Unfortunately we are talking about the development Rey has been given right now
    She learned to fly by piloting various ships around jakku as she said in tfa.
    This would have been fine, except for the fact she's able to completely outfly the trained from birth TIE Pilots with advanced maneuvers and stuff that not even Han or Lando pulled off when they were in control. This is especially noteworthy because she said she's never even flown the Falcon before, it would be like if I got control of a Monster Truck and completely surpassed every experienced Monster Truck driver because I've driven Cars before.

    I know the film also had Rey say she had no idea how she pulled it off, but even then it doesn't matter if the film acknowledges the impossible display of skill for her level of in-experience because it's still an impossible display of experience and sheer skill. Now you might argue "Well tell that to Super Racer Anakin" in which you might have a case, however. The film makes it very clear that he has been forced to race many, many, times before so by now Anakin has amassed quite a deal of Pod Racing experience, the film also makes it clear Anakin has failed or just barely survived multiple times in other races. This backstory of failure instills the tension Rey's Falcon scene lacks in that even though Anakin is experienced in pod racing, and he knows his competition he can fail, and even his skills as a Pod Racer aren't as incredibly impressive as Rey's piloting. I will condone Rey's knowledge of ships because it does make sense for her, and I didn't have any problem with her understanding of the modifications to Han's ship. I mean she knew the person who ordered the modification and would know the type of modifications he would do to his ships
    She beat kylo because kylo was wounded, imbalanced, and thought he had the upper hand while underestimating the force working through rey.
    Still an incredibly bad story beat to do. Imagine if Sauron was defeated by Aragorn in Fellowship of the ring. While it can work having the Hero defeat the villain especially at stage one of the Hero's development is generally pretty bad, TFA's ending is no exception
    As far as how powerful rey is in the force, she has not done anything besides mind trick and move rocks.
    From what we had learned in the EU and extrapolated from the films, the Mind Trick takes a great deal of skill and knowledge to perform, having her do it out of the blue makes no sense. Yes, I am aware some tie-in novel explained that she scooped the information out of Kylo's head....Somehow when he did the mind probe on her. However since it's unexplained in the film it's still a massive plot hole nonetheless. Now you might say then how can I factor in the EU information? Simple we only see Luke use in EP6 after he has undergone years of training, thus we can tell that it's something that took him a very long time to learn. The EU information collaborates this so Rey learning it in a flash is a violation of the previous established ground. The EU information on the Mind-Trick confirms the mind trick's difficulty and is a supplement to the films, for Rey you have to read a novel to understand how she even did what she did.

    Also those weren't some little rocks. While official calculations aren't known to my knowledge, the weight she lifted was easily in excess of SEVERAL HUNDRED TONES. More weight then we've ever seen a jedi lift in the films EVER BEFORE. Most importantly she did it practically carefree we see her in the scene just calmly talking with people and giving them hugs whilst keeping the rocks suspended high in the air with practically no strain. That's a huge display of power that makes Yoda look weak as he visibly strained lifting the X-Wing out of the bog, deflecting dooku's debris he had fall on him and threw at him in Ep2 before he would struggle to keep Anakin and Obi-Wan from being crushed by a pilar a few minutes later

    https://www.reddit.com/r/theydidthemath/comments/9nekjr/request_what_is_the_weight_of_the_rocks_rey/
    Does it really matter? I don’t think it does.
    Yes, if you care about a well written and developed story that is logically coherent and in-line with previous works in this 12 film series.

    I mean, like it or not, an audience’s reaction to a story is subjective. My experience of Rey in the ST was that I was excited to see her story play out within the first five minutes of TFA.

    Those scenes of her sorting through the wreckage of the imperial destroyer, making the bread in her broken down AT AT house. They’re great images. And great writing.

    Also, the John Williams Rey theme is one of the best in all of Star Wars.

    So I was just in it. Into her enough that I don’t care how heavy the rocks she lifts are. Just like you’re into Luke Skywalker enough to not care that somehow there’s a dude named Luke Skywalker “hiding out” on Darth Vader’s home planet and nobody is like....hey, I bet this guy is related to Anakin Skywalker who would probably pay anything to find him and kill him.

    I have bad news for the people who go over Star Wars lore with a fine tooth comb:

    They just make this stuff up as they go along.

    The real question I find interesting is: why don’t people give Rey the same benefit of the doubt they give the rest of the logic flaws of the Star Wars universe?

    Why do they bend over backwards to talk about Luke’s hardships but can’t see that Rey’s hardships are nearly exactly the same, beat for beat?

    That’s a thing worth investigating. And sometimes you find some pretty ugly answers in that investigation.
    jordi1337 wrote: »
    she was the single worst character in star wars until every new episode 8 character got introduced. worst writing ive seen on a high budget movie.

    Worst writing in a big budget move? You must’ve never watched a DC movie. Or another Star Wars movie for that matter. Harrison wasn’t going to JJ and telling him “you can write these lines, but you sure can’t say them.”

    Look, I'm going to put this as easy as possible so that it cannot be misconstrued.

    When going over a fictional character, it usually depends on that characters development throughout the story in which they belong.

    People usually like a character more than others because they can RELATE to that character. People find it easier to relate to a character when that person has a development throughout life close to the same as that character. Though the level of difficulty may not be the same, you know what I mean.

    Many people love luke because he failed many times throughout his development of character. (Luke failed to save his aunt and uncle, cant protect himself in the cantina, cant save Ben, took months to years of training to only still have difficulty lifting an Xwing. And so on.)

    Down to it, when people say hardship they mean hardship throughout the story. If one cant see that other than the first 6 minutes that Rey doesnt fail once, then theres no hope in an intelligent debate.

    That’s not fair. In general I think the debate on this thread has been intelligent. Unless by intelligent debate you mean that you just want people to agree with you.

    Just consider me the wise hermetic Jedi that is teaching all of you impetuous younglings the value of the Sequel Era.

    Because at worst TFA is an attempt to launch a state of perpetual Star Wars content by safely replicating one of the best movies in the Star Wars franchise. And at worst TLJ is a movie with interesting ideas that it’s trying to inject into the Star Wars universe but fails on a dramatic level (similar to oh....let’s say the entire PT).

    What I’ve been trying to say is that Rey’s character is actually very interesting and well drawn if you accept two things a section of the Star Wars fan base don’t seem to be able to accept as valid choices.

    1) Rey is a nobody

    2) Luke begins The Last Jedi disillusioned

    If you are able to meditate and clear your mind and just get over the thing you THOUGHT would happen and the thing you WANTED to happen, you would see that Rey’s existential conflict (hardships?), and the driving questions of the story, lie in those two things.

    The story of Rey is the story of someone who believes in the old legends and wants to be a part of them, but is confronted with the fact that that world doesn’t exist anymore. Not only that, but the person who is the hero of that past world does not believe rebuilding is possible or even worth it to begin with. And ALSO, lest we forget, that hero, in a moment of impulsiveness (remember how impulsive Luke is?) tried to wipe out the resurgence of darkness by trying to kill his own nephew, further accelerating the rise of darkness.

    But if you are spending those movies wetting yourself waiting for the big reveal that Rey is Obi Wan Kenobi’s daughter, you are not paying attention the actual interesting part of the story and you’re preventing yourself from enjoying some of the things the ST actually does well.

    You’re also concocting a fan fic story in your head that is, quite frankly, terrible. Bloodlines are boring. Hopefully these movies don’t fall into the trap of explaining peoples relationship to the force and their own power by throwing a dart at a board filled with pictures of past characters. It’s just boring and regressive.
  • bfloo wrote: »
    Draxin wrote: »
    It really boggles my mind that people think this trilogy will be saved if Rey is a clone or a creation of Palpatine (?!?). Thank god these people aren’t actually writing movies and are confined to video game forum fan fiction. They must be the same people who were convinced that Snoke was Mace Windu or whatever.

    Of course we dont think he's mace windu... he's obviously the dreaded darth jar jar binks

    Haha. Like, the people who are like “Rey cannot have performed that mind trick, she is a Mary Sue” are the same people who are like “yes, Maul got cut in half and fell down an endless abyss but now he has robot legs, so he’s all better.”

    I don't know a single person who think's Maul is better off without his other half and still understands that Rey is a poorly written character.

    I would argue that it both strengthens and weakens him at the same time.

    We generally agree that it was dumb bringing Maul back, but he was at least used well.

    The Maul season had some of the best writing on the show It was the only one I found actually memorable. Other seasons had some good arcs as well before you cw fanatics assault me.

    Maul was the only rebelz villain who actually consistently bought tension to the show. Thrawn was a great villain as well, but took his time to actually do anything.

    Swolo bombed, so I doubt they are going to explore that plot line any further.

    I don't remember ever throwing shade at you for disliking anything regarding the PT era of Star Wars. Unless you were one those bandwagoners who repeatedly shoved people aside for Rogue One content and consistently used the phrase "Clown Wars" to mock Clone Wars fans which is something the mods got on everyone for because they were tired of seeing it.

    If none of that applies to you then you're a cool cat in my book.
    Hi.
  • ROMG4 wrote: »
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    Debate something that is totally subjective? Okay. Let’s do it.

    Sigh, subjectivity my most hated blanket/cannot critique(!) argument shield. We are discussing the writing quality of the ST subjectivity only allows you to like something it doesn't keep anything from being rightfully criticized. If I might go off-topic for a moment. I have to say I truly dislike the rise of the "My Feelings" argument on the internet because it's the death of analytical debate. Because when subjectivity takes hold discussions to revolve around discussing feelings and not the subject of the discussion itself. Subjectivity has its place as the user’s feelings about a subject are what often drive them to start a debate. But it is objectivity that gives the debate/discussion its name a discussion entirely around subjectivity is no discussion at all it’s just feelings being thrown around.
    Rey is awesome. She is not a mary sue. She is a survivor and a scavenger and learned to fight while being nothing more than a street urchin who had to fight in order to survive.
    Basic outline of her character, which is an outline I do like. There's plenty of really interesting character paths you could take with a character like that. Unfortunately we are talking about the development Rey has been given right now
    She learned to fly by piloting various ships around jakku as she said in tfa.
    This would have been fine, except for the fact she's able to completely outfly the trained from birth TIE Pilots with advanced maneuvers and stuff that not even Han or Lando pulled off when they were in control. This is especially noteworthy because she said she's never even flown the Falcon before, it would be like if I got control of a Monster Truck and completely surpassed every experienced Monster Truck driver because I've driven Cars before.

    I know the film also had Rey say she had no idea how she pulled it off, but even then it doesn't matter if the film acknowledges the impossible display of skill for her level of in-experience because it's still an impossible display of experience and sheer skill. Now you might argue "Well tell that to Super Racer Anakin" in which you might have a case, however. The film makes it very clear that he has been forced to race many, many, times before so by now Anakin has amassed quite a deal of Pod Racing experience, the film also makes it clear Anakin has failed or just barely survived multiple times in other races. This backstory of failure instills the tension Rey's Falcon scene lacks in that even though Anakin is experienced in pod racing, and he knows his competition he can fail, and even his skills as a Pod Racer aren't as incredibly impressive as Rey's piloting. I will condone Rey's knowledge of ships because it does make sense for her, and I didn't have any problem with her understanding of the modifications to Han's ship. I mean she knew the person who ordered the modification and would know the type of modifications he would do to his ships
    She beat kylo because kylo was wounded, imbalanced, and thought he had the upper hand while underestimating the force working through rey.
    Still an incredibly bad story beat to do. Imagine if Sauron was defeated by Aragorn in Fellowship of the ring. While it can work having the Hero defeat the villain especially at stage one of the Hero's development is generally pretty bad, TFA's ending is no exception
    As far as how powerful rey is in the force, she has not done anything besides mind trick and move rocks.
    From what we had learned in the EU and extrapolated from the films, the Mind Trick takes a great deal of skill and knowledge to perform, having her do it out of the blue makes no sense. Yes, I am aware some tie-in novel explained that she scooped the information out of Kylo's head....Somehow when he did the mind probe on her. However since it's unexplained in the film it's still a massive plot hole nonetheless. Now you might say then how can I factor in the EU information? Simple we only see Luke use in EP6 after he has undergone years of training, thus we can tell that it's something that took him a very long time to learn. The EU information collaborates this so Rey learning it in a flash is a violation of the previous established ground. The EU information on the Mind-Trick confirms the mind trick's difficulty and is a supplement to the films, for Rey you have to read a novel to understand how she even did what she did.

    Also those weren't some little rocks. While official calculations aren't known to my knowledge, the weight she lifted was easily in excess of SEVERAL HUNDRED TONES. More weight then we've ever seen a jedi lift in the films EVER BEFORE. Most importantly she did it practically carefree we see her in the scene just calmly talking with people and giving them hugs whilst keeping the rocks suspended high in the air with practically no strain. That's a huge display of power that makes Yoda look weak as he visibly strained lifting the X-Wing out of the bog, deflecting dooku's debris he had fall on him and threw at him in Ep2 before he would struggle to keep Anakin and Obi-Wan from being crushed by a pilar a few minutes later

    https://www.reddit.com/r/theydidthemath/comments/9nekjr/request_what_is_the_weight_of_the_rocks_rey/
    Does it really matter? I don’t think it does.
    Yes, if you care about a well written and developed story that is logically coherent and in-line with previous works in this 12 film series.

    I mean, like it or not, an audience’s reaction to a story is subjective. My experience of Rey in the ST was that I was excited to see her story play out within the first five minutes of TFA.

    Those scenes of her sorting through the wreckage of the imperial destroyer, making the bread in her broken down AT AT house. They’re great images. And great writing.

    Also, the John Williams Rey theme is one of the best in all of Star Wars.

    So I was just in it. Into her enough that I don’t care how heavy the rocks she lifts are. Just like you’re into Luke Skywalker enough to not care that somehow there’s a dude named Luke Skywalker “hiding out” on Darth Vader’s home planet and nobody is like....hey, I bet this guy is related to Anakin Skywalker who would probably pay anything to find him and kill him.

    I have bad news for the people who go over Star Wars lore with a fine tooth comb:

    They just make this stuff up as they go along.

    The real question I find interesting is: why don’t people give Rey the same benefit of the doubt they give the rest of the logic flaws of the Star Wars universe?

    Why do they bend over backwards to talk about Luke’s hardships but can’t see that Rey’s hardships are nearly exactly the same, beat for beat?

    That’s a thing worth investigating. And sometimes you find some pretty ugly answers in that investigation.
    jordi1337 wrote: »
    she was the single worst character in star wars until every new episode 8 character got introduced. worst writing ive seen on a high budget movie.

    Worst writing in a big budget move? You must’ve never watched a DC movie. Or another Star Wars movie for that matter. Harrison wasn’t going to JJ and telling him “you can write these lines, but you sure can’t say them.”

    Look, I'm going to put this as easy as possible so that it cannot be misconstrued.

    When going over a fictional character, it usually depends on that characters development throughout the story in which they belong.

    People usually like a character more than others because they can RELATE to that character. People find it easier to relate to a character when that person has a development throughout life close to the same as that character. Though the level of difficulty may not be the same, you know what I mean.

    Many people love luke because he failed many times throughout his development of character. (Luke failed to save his aunt and uncle, cant protect himself in the cantina, cant save Ben, took months to years of training to only still have difficulty lifting an Xwing. And so on.)

    Down to it, when people say hardship they mean hardship throughout the story. If one cant see that other than the first 6 minutes that Rey doesnt fail once, then theres no hope in an intelligent debate.

    That’s not fair. In general I think the debate on this thread has been intelligent. Unless by intelligent debate you mean that you just want people to agree with you.

    Just consider me the wise hermetic Jedi that is teaching all of you impetuous younglings the value of the Sequel Era.

    Because at worst TFA is an attempt to launch a state of perpetual Star Wars content by safely replicating one of the best movies in the Star Wars franchise. And at worst TLJ is a movie with interesting ideas that it’s trying to inject into the Star Wars universe but fails on a dramatic level (similar to oh....let’s say the entire PT).

    What I’ve been trying to say is that Rey’s character is actually very interesting and well drawn if you accept two things a section of the Star Wars fan base don’t seem to be able to accept as valid choices.

    1) Rey is a nobody

    2) Luke begins The Last Jedi disillusioned

    If you are able to meditate and clear your mind and just get over the thing you THOUGHT would happen and the thing you WANTED to happen, you would see that Rey’s existential conflict (hardships?), and the driving questions of the story, lie in those two things.

    The story of Rey is the story of someone who believes in the old legends and wants to be a part of them, but is confronted with the fact that that world doesn’t exist anymore. Not only that, but the person who is the hero of that past world does not believe rebuilding is possible or even worth it to begin with. And ALSO, lest we forget, that hero, in a moment of impulsiveness (remember how impulsive Luke is?) tried to wipe out the resurgence of darkness by trying to kill his own nephew, further accelerating the rise of darkness.

    But if you are spending those movies wetting yourself waiting for the big reveal that Rey is Obi Wan Kenobi’s daughter, you are not paying attention the actual interesting part of the story and you’re preventing yourself from enjoying some of the things the ST actually does well.

    You’re also concocting a fan fic story in your head that is, quite frankly, terrible. Bloodlines are boring. Hopefully these movies don’t fall into the trap of explaining peoples relationship to the force and their own power by throwing a dart at a board filled with pictures of past characters. It’s just boring and regressive.

    First of all, I saw the movies, and I understand the plot line.

    Second of all, I was just trying to explain why many people do not like Rey, and I would say that 9 times out of 10 isnt because she's a nobody. It's because she's a convenient character.

    3rd, if you're last paragraph was concerning the theories I posted earlier, it was just because I was using pieces of ST and new information that has come out. Thank you.
  • Draxin
    245 posts Member
    edited August 14
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    ROMG4 wrote: »
    Cane_danko wrote: »
    You know if you take all of your comments and roll them up into one then you may start to have something of a coherent thought (directed at the rey haters)
    Then prove it, debate me. I actually really enjoy debating. If you disagree with me debate me that's all I want trying to do this silly handwave "oh well if yall took all your stuff you'd have something" doesn't mean nothing

    Debate something that is totally subjective? Okay. Let’s do it. Rey is awesome. She is not a mary sue.

    What a cop out response. I think the last few people who took you seriously have stopped doing that after this response.
    Hi.
  • ROMG4
    2955 posts Member
    edited August 14
    If you are able to meditate and clear your mind and just get over the thing you THOUGHT would happen and the thing you WANTED to happen, you would see that Rey’s existential conflict (hardships?), and the driving questions of the story, lie in those two things.
    I had and hold no expectations for the ST. I only watch a few trailers to avoid being spoiled, I don't care at all about fan theories, except for the Darth Binks and I liked the concept of the Palpatine thing. But I hardly expected them to ever come true I simply liked the idea nothing morel, nothing less. All I wanted was some world building, some explanations, good character development and a good story, that's all I wanted from my Star Wars movie. TLJ utterly failed me with it's completely ***** story that makes TPM's dumbest moments look truly intellectual
    The story of Rey is the story of someone who believes in the old legends and wants to be a part of them, but is confronted with the fact that that world doesn’t exist anymore. Not only that, but the person who is the hero of that past world does not believe rebuilding is possible or even worth it to begin with. And ALSO, lest we forget, that hero, in a moment of impulsiveness (remember how impulsive Luke is?) tried to wipe out the resurgence of darkness by trying to kill his own nephew, further accelerating the rise of darkness.
    But if you are spending those movies wetting yourself waiting for the big reveal that Rey is Obi Wan Kenobi’s daughter, you are not paying attention the actual interesting part of the story and you’re preventing yourself from enjoying some of the things the ST actually does well.
    You’re also concocting a fan fic story in your head that is, quite frankly, terrible. Bloodlines are boring. Hopefully these movies don’t fall into the trap of explaining peoples relationship to the force and their own power by throwing a dart at a board filled with pictures of past characters. It’s just boring and regressive.
    I like the cool little trappings you gave the ST, actually made it sound interesting for a half second despite how poorly written they are in actuality. But yeah none of this even remotely applies to me and it's such a tired old argument that's been thrown around for 2 years. I'm pretty sure 95% of the theory people don't even care anymore after Lucasfilm posted this
    DpgCw7bUYAAViap.jpg

    Man talk about a way to shoot your free PR machine in the foot, lol.

    I despise TLJ not even on the lore side of things just that the movie insults my intelligence which is annoying because I'm dumb but I'm not stupid, and TLJ is a stupid movie
    OOM-9 FOR BATTLEFRONT 2
    OOM-9 Hero Concept by AzelfandQuilava
    https://i.redd.it/uleh1g22xrhz.png

    OOM-9 Canonical Material Check-List:

    Star Wars Episode 1: The Phantom Menace
    William Shakespeare's The Phantom of Menace: Star Wars Part the First
    Ultimate Star Wars (Reference Guide)
    Star Wars: On the Front Lines (Reference Guide)
    Darth Maul: "Who is supervising the search for the Gungan cities?" Nute Gunray: "Commander OOM-Nine." Darth Maul: "A droid. The predecessor of your inept B-Ones." Rune Haako: "A superior droid, Lord Maul. Viceroy Gunray's personal guard."
    The OOM-9 Thread
    https://battlefront-forums.ea.com/discussion/76756/the-oom-9-thread-9-9-the-phantom-droid/p1
  • Laser921 wrote: »
    All in all, the sequels are just not written very well. Maybe the story itself but all the background is crap. Like the Resistance? Just a carbon copy of the Rebels, First Order is the Empire. Id be more ok with the sequels even if it was same storyline with Rey but we had the New Republic, like it was in Legends, you know, a proper government and military vs the Imperial Remnant/First Order. But know, TFA feels like the exact same plot progression as new hope and honestly, Last Jedi is a boring movie until the end. It just doesnt have the same feel.

    In general I agree with this. I think the stories themselves are pretty well written, but there is no work that went into an explanation of why things ended up how they did after the OT.

    I was willing to accept that for TFA because it felt clear that they wanted to just play it safe so we could be given lots of Star Wars movies in the future. In addition I thought all of the new characters and the first 45 minutes of the were great. But that was before it devolved into a complete carbon copy of ANH.

    I think Rian Johnson botched it by deciding not to talk about backstory and why the world was the way it was. Even though I think some of the other controversial decisions he made were great (disillusioned Luke, Rey is nobody, killing that lame excuse for a villain, Snoke).

    I am hoping JJ can close it out well. But I think in general this trilogy will be looked back on fondly in 10-15 years. Even more so than the PT is now.
  • @ROMG4 and TLJ is just...slow? I dont know if thats the right word for it but it lacks any enthusiasm for me. I also dont like the background galaxy either. The New Republic is destroyed? They are a galaxy spanning government, how does one star system equate to the loss of a galactic level government and military? If you look it up on Wookieepedia, it says the military, although downsized, was still enough to patrol their territory, the actual wording is "While the New Republic military had sufficient resources to defend the galaxy..." so again, why does the destruction of one system mean the military is destroyed? I dont know if thats confirmed or just weakened, several articles conflict on that. And then pretty much there is no Resistance left when they leave Crait so I feel like a grave has been dug. So these allies in the outer rim better be something pretty special. I really hope its not some lame thing like they inspire people to stand up to the first order since thatd be cliche in my book.
    Emotion yet Peace, Ignorance yet Knowledge, Passion yet Serenity, Chaos yet Harmony, Death yet the Force
  • @kevanwithana The thing with Snoke actually bugged the crap out of me and this is because the two director problem. Snoke was made to be this big baddie in TFA and then was nothing in the next movie. Kinda like the Knights Of Ren, there was a build up in TFA but do we her about them at all in Last Jedi? Nope. I remember seeing something that was a behind the scenes, he had a ring of the sage of dwartti or something like that. And Palpatine had a statue of the same thing in his office when he was Chancellor. So I remember having a slim hope they would pull something from Legends and have Snoke not be dead and he's really a clone of Palpatine, now that I could get behind.
    Emotion yet Peace, Ignorance yet Knowledge, Passion yet Serenity, Chaos yet Harmony, Death yet the Force
  • Laser921 wrote: »
    @kevanwithana The thing with Snoke actually bugged the crap out of me and this is because the two director problem. Snoke was made to be this big baddie in TFA and then was nothing in the next movie. Kinda like the Knights Of Ren, there was a build up in TFA but do we her about them at all in Last Jedi? Nope. I remember seeing something that was a behind the scenes, he had a ring of the sage of dwartti or something like that. And Palpatine had a statue of the same thing in his office when he was Chancellor. So I remember having a slim hope they would pull something from Legends and have Snoke not be dead and he's really a clone of Palpatine, now that I could get behind.

    A surprise to be sure, but a welcome one.
  • Laser921 wrote: »
    @kevanwithana The thing with Snoke actually bugged the crap out of me and this is because the two director problem. Snoke was made to be this big baddie in TFA and then was nothing in the next movie. Kinda like the Knights Of Ren, there was a build up in TFA but do we her about them at all in Last Jedi? Nope. I remember seeing something that was a behind the scenes, he had a ring of the sage of dwartti or something like that. And Palpatine had a statue of the same thing in his office when he was Chancellor. So I remember having a slim hope they would pull something from Legends and have Snoke not be dead and he's really a clone of Palpatine, now that I could get behind.

    Snoke from the first movie to me just represented one of the many things that JJ was copying from the first movie. It felt like it was just going to lead to a Palpatine/Vader scene at the end of Episode 9 and I was bored by that.

    But to me, doing that in scene in TLJ was completely surprising and felt like it left Kylo with some space to go in the final movie. I genuinely don’t know what’s going to happen in Ep 9 and I’m excited by that.

    That said, I really felt like they needed to give Kylo a win at the end of TLJ. I know they’re saying that the Resistance is broken and the First Order is powerful. But I don’t feel it.

    I think Kylo is a really interesting and well drawn character, but he’s not a particularly scary villain.
  • bfloo
    15918 posts Member
    The idea of Rey wasn't an issue.

    Rey being a female isn't an issue.

    JJ forgetting we needed a reason to care about Rey is the issue.
    The Knights of Gareth are Eternal

    Pirate of the Knights of Gareth

    h846398gb27k.png


  • bfloo wrote: »
    The idea of Rey wasn't an issue.

    Rey being a female isn't an issue.

    JJ forgetting we needed a reason to care about Rey is the issue.

    True. That was the annoying thing when TFA came out, if you said you didnt like Rey, a lot of people cried about being against female protagonists and junk. For me it was that everything was too convenient for her. She just happens to be a good fighter, a good pilot, strong in the Force, it felt like there was no challenge, I guess?
    Emotion yet Peace, Ignorance yet Knowledge, Passion yet Serenity, Chaos yet Harmony, Death yet the Force
  • bfloo
    15918 posts Member
    Laser921 wrote: »
    bfloo wrote: »
    The idea of Rey wasn't an issue.

    Rey being a female isn't an issue.

    JJ forgetting we needed a reason to care about Rey is the issue.

    True. That was the annoying thing when TFA came out, if you said you didnt like Rey, a lot of people cried about being against female protagonists and junk. For me it was that everything was too convenient for her. She just happens to be a good fighter, a good pilot, strong in the Force, it felt like there was no challenge, I guess?

    I just laugh when they say I don't like Rey because of the female thing.

    My fav Jedi, Mando and Sith are all female and I've said Barris' overall story arc in cw was brilliant.
    Nomi Sunrider, Bo Katan, and Darth Zannah is anyone cares.
    The Knights of Gareth are Eternal

    Pirate of the Knights of Gareth

    h846398gb27k.png


  • @bfloo I like Cade Valdarin...oh wait a minute hes not canon. Kyle Katarn is hands down one of my favorite from Legends and actually used as inspiration in Cades creation
    Emotion yet Peace, Ignorance yet Knowledge, Passion yet Serenity, Chaos yet Harmony, Death yet the Force
  • ROMG4
    2955 posts Member
    Laser921 wrote: »
    @ROMG4 and TLJ is just...slow? I dont know if thats the right word for it but it lacks any enthusiasm for me. I also dont like the background galaxy either. The New Republic is destroyed? They are a galaxy spanning government, how does one star system equate to the loss of a galactic level government and military? If you look it up on Wookieepedia, it says the military, although downsized, was still enough to patrol their territory, the actual wording is "While the New Republic military had sufficient resources to defend the galaxy..." so again, why does the destruction of one system mean the military is destroyed? I dont know if thats confirmed or just weakened, several articles conflict on that. And then pretty much there is no Resistance left when they leave Crait so I feel like a grave has been dug. So these allies in the outer rim better be something pretty special. I really hope its not some lame thing like they inspire people to stand up to the first order since thatd be cliche in my book.

    That's the problem with the ST, they wanted to reset the stakes because forbid a modern Star Wars movie have truly dramatic space/ground battles with two Galactic Super-Powers

    So they have to write in that the New Republic sucked and was more corrupt then the Old Republic in the Prequels was and had practically no power

    One of the dumbest things EVER
    OOM-9 FOR BATTLEFRONT 2
    OOM-9 Hero Concept by AzelfandQuilava
    https://i.redd.it/uleh1g22xrhz.png

    OOM-9 Canonical Material Check-List:

    Star Wars Episode 1: The Phantom Menace
    William Shakespeare's The Phantom of Menace: Star Wars Part the First
    Ultimate Star Wars (Reference Guide)
    Star Wars: On the Front Lines (Reference Guide)
    Darth Maul: "Who is supervising the search for the Gungan cities?" Nute Gunray: "Commander OOM-Nine." Darth Maul: "A droid. The predecessor of your inept B-Ones." Rune Haako: "A superior droid, Lord Maul. Viceroy Gunray's personal guard."
    The OOM-9 Thread
    https://battlefront-forums.ea.com/discussion/76756/the-oom-9-thread-9-9-the-phantom-droid/p1
  • There are moments, it feels like Rey is one of the most vicious heros there is. At times she can walk up to anyone (especially from behind) and just totally wreck their *****.
  • She’s a goddess
  • Lyc4n wrote: »
    I keep saying she is a bad character learning to use the force just because the plot needs her to in situations and being stronger than kylo. Rather than developing these abilities.

    What does everyone else think?

    Before the ST, I had never heard the term “Mary Sue” before. After seeing it thrown around so much in the aftermath, I looked it up and, agree, as the character is now (thru TLJ), she fits the standard definition to a T. Setting aside the myriad of other story/canon problems and the politics of the ST, just from a literary standpoint:
    - She’s not a compelling heroic figure as she doesn’t really have any flaws or insurmountable obstacle to overcome. Not knowing who her parents are could’ve been made into a compelling one (really it would have to be combined with other stuff too though to be interesting), but that option seems to have been gutted via TLJ and, it really didn’t come across as any kind of weighing burden upon her in the TFA either.
    - She has no serious antagonist to oppose her in the story. I mean, she already defeated Kylo Ren in TFA, the supposed champion of the Knights of Ren and a feared figure in the galaxy, in lightsaber combat and with force powers (ex. repelling and reversing Kylo’s mind probe), without having had a minute of training in either beforehand. Then in TLJ, after a few seconds of “training” (if we can even call it that), she manages to best the Grandmaster of the Jedi order in lightsaber combat during their dispute. Finally, in a seemingly contradictory fashion, after throwing her about with ease, Snoke was quickly (stupidly?) dispatched by Kylo Ren; since Rey > Kylo per above, it would follow that Rey > Snoke (maybe she was just faking being weaker than Snoke to help Kylo see the light, lol?).
    - She can do everything well and no explanation is given/expectations and rationale to the contrary are ignored. For example, she’s an ace combat pilot, mechanic (I guess that one could be plausible), understands new languages instantly, is not only immune from temptation by the dark side of the force but also instinctively recognizes it and knows it to be bad, etc.

    She could’ve been written as a great character and I was honestly very interested with the potential idea of a reformation/restoration of the Jedi Order under Rey guided by Leia after the untimely death of Luke but as it is, I don’t think that the fiasco that is her character development can be rescued in the short window that remains in the trilogy (episode IX).

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