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TLJ was, meh, not my favourite but not my worst, but it went in a completely different direction from TFA. That was the main problem for me. If this star wars saga wants to survive the episodes need to fit into each other more.
That quote from Kathleen Kennedy makes me regret going to see the movie.
I think the trouble with the prequels aside the aforementioned performance and dialogue issues comes back to two things.
The having gone too far with Jar Jar and causing the abandonment of Jar Jar as a Sith. See:
The abandonment of midichlorians and consequently leaving out what is a big void in the fall of Anakin.
My personal theory is the point of the midichlorians was to make all of the sorts of training a Jedi goes through essentially a piece of cake for Anakin. And to maybe flesh out a bit more about the other costs of using the Force aside from the temptations of The Dark Side.
What Obi-wan could do with practice and at cost would have been nothing for Anakin. We see hints of this with him force juggling a knick knack when agitated and with the line with Padme when he steals her fruit via force levitation about Obi-wan being grumpy with him for doing that. I think the admonishment about spending too much time being a smart backside and not enough practicing his saber also hints at it.
There is nothing that Anakin can't really do first try with The Force. This would partially be why he gets pulled in by the prospect of keeping people from dying. Why wouldn't he be able to do that when everything else is so easy?
These ideas get shorted because of the outrage at midichlorians which are meant to setup the "raw power" Anakin had at his call. So that gets bypassed a bit and we miss a key motivation for some of Anakin's resentment of Obi-wan aside from adolescence.
I think the Clone Wars animated is very good at showing us the anger that is always lurking just beneath the surface.
It's not SJW, it's just the way the modern world works (and how it *should* work). Different people have different visions and I've already seen thousands of white male interpretations of things I like. I welcome people with different experiences and worldviews putting their personal touch on That Thing I Like because it leads to different kinds of stories that I haven't seen before.
TLDR grow up, everybody gets to play in the sandbox. It's not your personal property.
And I say all of this as a relatively secure and emotionally stable WHITE GUY.
Guess it was only a matter of time before it got here as well
Back to the Godzilla franchise then
Sigh, globalists have to ruin everything
No, but in this film, they promoted their political messages about real life over the story. I like to have good female leads. I like having a diverse cast instead of everyone being the same. However, I don't like it when they prioritize and incentivize it over the plot.
"It would essentially ruin the eras and turn them into nothing much more than the same thing and same experience but with a different skin. Which is contrary to the point in having eras in the first place." - ZmanGames
I do agree with a lot of this. And the Palpatine/Anakin scene in ROTS, the Tale of Plagueis the Wise, was fantastic! And yeah, killing younglings? I still don't get that.
"It would essentially ruin the eras and turn them into nothing much more than the same thing and same experience but with a different skin. Which is contrary to the point in having eras in the first place." - ZmanGames
"Social justice warrior" (commonly abbreviated SJW) is a pejorative term for an individual promoting socially progressive views, including feminism, civil rights, multiculturalism, and identity politics"
When storytelling and making a good movie takes the backseat to progressive views, feminism, multiculturalism and identity politics then it is the very definition of SJW. It is so blatantly obvious in just about any tv show, movie, comic, commercials etc etc
No one minds a female lead or a diverse cast. What people mind is having it forced down your throat at every possible angle. It is become a glaring propaganda machine, and it has reached a galaxy far far away.
I'm a bit older with a great love for the original trilogy, episodes 4-6. When the prequels first came out, I was not a fan. But I can say confidently, with out a doubt, that the prequels did not taint, ruin or change my perception of the original trilogy. Nor will they ever. Nor will episodes 7 through infinity. Each seperate SW 'era' they try to bring us is trying to build its own legacy, IMO. Either you like it or you don't.
So until some of y'all open up a billion dollar production studio and spend hundreds of millions of dollars to try and give us something that you think you could do better, wake up and realize that you are the ones ruining SW.
I could care less on who plays who and what race/genders are in films - in fact, as a white British guy, I probably see Finn as my current ST favourite, even though he was let down by a poor plot for him in TLJ. The cast of RO was perfect, with Jyn, Chirrut and Baze my favourites.
No, the problem i have is rather than developing a story with the new characters, they push their PC agenda down my throat. I love Daisy Ridley, think she has been great in other stuff, but all that Rey reeks of is 'I can do anything better than anyone because im female'. If she had took a few hits in TFA or TLJ I'd be more swayed to like her. Currently I'm struggling to relate.
Look at Canto, that is one big political message on animal rights etc. Which I actually agree with, but seeing it take over a story in a film I want to see isnt the way to start promoting it.
The fact that the film has attracted people who enjoy that sort of thing shows who its aimed at. In previous threads I have mentioned a colleague of mine who hated star wars and han solo in particular, as he represented everything she hates. Now its 'the best thing ever due to it being so diverse and the canto section was amazing with the animals' - my point here is it shouldnt even be mentioned that its diverse as a plus point. If its diverse, great, but that shows that diversity is shining over any attempt at a decent story, just to get praise from various groups.
I'm not trying to pick on you, but this kinda cements my point. There are bad characters in LOADS of movies, there are overpowered/underdeveloped characters in LOADS of movies.
If that bad character is male, it's a bad character.
If that bad character is female, OMG it's a SJW agenda being pushed down our throats again!
It was either in this thread or another Ep VIII thread where someone said they went into Rogue One, sure it was going to be some SJW feminist ****. Then they loved Jyn Erso.
But wait. Why is it so hard to see that if you're bracing for an agenda and have to be CONVINCED it's not there by good characters and strong storytelling, that you're really the one with an agenda here?
The sheer vitriol I see aimed at female characters who have weak points in their development is proof enough to me that we have a long way to go here.
Sometimes, it's okay to just call a bad character a bad character if you don't like how that character was developed. There's no need to go tilting at windmills, looking for agendas when you simply disagree with a creative decision.
I honestly don't care if anyone likes Rey. Hey, that's your call and I see where the argument is coming from.
But that doesn't mean Rey is, by default, a Mary Sue feminazi SJW character written to come lop off all our balls in the dead of night. It just means she's a bad character.
Like the literal thousands of bad male characters we've seen over the years, yet no one runs around screaming how it's part of the white male agenda to write **** characters.
I'm not trying to pick on you, as you seem a pretty reasonable fellow, but this kinda cements my point. There are bad characters in LOADS of movies, there are overpowered/underdeveloped characters in LOADS of movies.
If that bad character is male, it's a bad character.
If that bad character is female, OMG it's a SJW agenda being pushed down our throats again! *shakes fist at sky*
It was either in this thread or another Ep VIII thread where someone said they went into Rogue One, sure it was going to be some SJW feminist **** and they were fully prepared to hate it. They watched the film and absolutely loved Jyn Erso.
But wait. Why is it so hard to see that if you're bracing for an agenda and have to be CONVINCED it's not there by good characters and strong storytelling, that you're really the one with an agenda here? No one walks into a male-led film and says "boy, I really hope this isn't some Men Right's Activist garbage being shoved down our throats again".
The sheer vitriol I see aimed at female characters who have weak points in their development is proof enough to me that we have a long way to go here.
Sometimes, it's okay to just call a bad character a bad character if you don't like how that character was developed. There's no need to go tilting at windmills, looking for agendas when you simply disagree with a creative decision.
I honestly don't care if anyone likes Rey. Hey, that's your call and I see where the argument is coming from. I have some theories about why she has been written the way she has and I hope we get an explanation in Ep IX because right now, things seem off-kilter even to me.
But that doesn't mean Rey is, by default, a Mary Sue feminazi SJW character written to come lop off all our balls in the dead of night. It just means she's a bad character (if that's the way you lean on this topic, anyway).
Like the literal thousands of bad male characters we've seen over the years, yet no one runs around screaming how it's part of the white male agenda to write **** characters.
Great post.
Battlefront 2 , Battlefield and more.
Fair play, I see your point. I think though fore, if Luke had of been the way Rey is, I wouldnt have been keen on him. With everything he goes through and the help he has, by VI you are rooting for him completely. The same cannot be said with Rey as she can literally do anything. If she had of went what Luke went through she would actually be likeable.
Its similar in my other big love, superheroes. I find Superman boring and hard to relate to. Yeah they will write weaknesses in for him, he has a nice backstory and all, but he can do everything. Which to me makes him boring. Theres not as much to root for. Thats almost exactly how I feel about Rey.
Rey and the female stuff aside though, I still think the plot falls flat under all the various PC messages for me. Agree to disagree. Nice to see someone who can debate though in a civilised manner!
Same here. Thanks for remaining civil.
I totally get the bullet points about why Rey's character is overpowered and not engaging. I see validity in the arguments, it just bothers me that so many immediately fall back to claiming a SJW agenda (does anyone here actually believe Kennedy sat down with Abrams and Kasdan and TOLD them to write a thinly developed character?).
As for me, there's still one movie left to tie up these loose ends. I don't get mad during the first act of a play and walk out because there are too many dangling plot points at intermission.
If no explanation is given to why Rey is as powerful as she is, that's sloppy, lazy writing.
But I don't think for a second that Kasdan and Abrams were nefariously giggling the entire time as they wrote the character, knowing that their feminist agenda would FINALLY come to fruition... I mean, come on... two white guys, one of whom wrote The Empire Strikes Back are suddenly political warriors of cinema? It doesn't pass even the most cursory logic test.
The president of lucasfilm has stated in interviews multiple times that the intent is to push a girl power/feminist message. Can’t really deny they are pushing a message when they clearly tell you they are pushing a message lol. I don’t really care what your opinion is on that particular subject but there’s no denying they are message pushing.
Ah, yes. So we should be like you and kiss their **** whenever they make something? Just because it takes money and time to do? So, The Last Airbender movie, which supposedly had a $150 million budget ($50 million less than TLJ), is a good movie in your eyes? Pathetic.
"It would essentially ruin the eras and turn them into nothing much more than the same thing and same experience but with a different skin. Which is contrary to the point in having eras in the first place." - ZmanGames
********
There's a difference between intertuality and expectations.
A "franchise" (smooth name for a comercial institution) does need to have intertuality amongst it's parts: in our case, any SW requieres "I have a bad feeling about this", starships and lightsabers, and so on. Most people "following" the franchise have their own expectations, some of them accurated (the always present phrase must be said by a "light side" character, or at least, a character in distress; dark side's starship should fire green laser bolts, but anyways oposite fire should be red, blablabla), and some of them not so much (Luke must have a strong personality after so many years; actantial relationship amongst all characters must be alike amongst trilogies, ...). Judging a movie as "good" or "bad" based on the later, is, commonly, a big mistake, even if there's a "solid" base for it.
A lot of fans did --I did-- with the three prequels, and we were "right": the Force was so much more than a genetic incident, Obi-Wan and Vader were the twins; Leia was at least a couple of years older than Luke; Solo and Fett were somehow related (and Bobba survived the Sarlacc); the list is, if not endless, very large indeed. The same is true when we consider the "extended" versions from 1997. But being "right" about disliking something isn't the same as being right when it comes to state it's a piece of crap.
Phantom Menace is, no doubt; but, hey, it's actually a smooth movie. Very much as The last jedi. I repeat, IN A SENSE: expectations were not satisfied, of course, in either. Nevertheless, they both brought up "life" to a "dying" franchise, in the only way it matters to the owners: they both made a lot of money (on one hand). And their intertextual references are solid enough (on the other hand). That's all the new movies required.
Now, if the argument is going to be about Disney's movies being "soft" or "hardcore" enough, or if they "didn't respect" the "original", I do believe that's a discussion I do not want to have, again: it's being going on since Snow White, and it will be long after Episode IX becomes an old movie. For me, I just need to compare the so seriously boring stuff Warner provide, with the actually exciting --if not thrilling, that would be a matter of perspective-- movies Disney's already offered.
LLLLLLIIIIIESSSSS. She would never do that.
Yeah I dont think Abrams or even Johnson have an agenda. Johnson was just a bull in a china shop in trying to move things on from the past ('let the past die' being a new annoying phrase!). Its Kennedy who worries me. I doubt she asked them to write a shallow character, but she will have had a sat in making her the most powerful and no mistakes. No doubts about that.
If there is some evil feminist agenda at play, why was Jyn the only female character of note in Rogue One?
Why are the majority of characters in Rebels male, including what I consider the two primary characters? If some agenda a afoot, don’t you want to get the kids on your side first?
These arguments don’t really hold water.
This comment makes no sense. The movie scored lower than The Phantom Menace. The majority of people hated it... If you liked the movie, I respect your opinion, but that statement's completely false.
No matter the message of feminism, what is debatable are the errors and successes of KK.
Successes: Gareth Edwards, very powerful Director, I create great characters like Krennic and Jyn. He also has 2 cameos in the movies.
Errors: Rian Johnson, he ruined Luke, he did throw the lightsaber (horrible scene), Rian created the ridiculus plot of Supremacy against Raddus and did not respect Admiral Ackbar.
It has also caused IX to have little interest.
The knights of Gareth will rule
1. the old movies also told bad stories
2. the old movies also had plotholes
3. the old movies also had gary stues
4. the old movies sucked as much as TLJ, oh wait did i say TLJ sucks no i mean the old movies suck, TLJ is awesome
I remember someone in this forum saying "people also hated ESB's ending" are you kidding me
the another calling the org sag as bad as the TLJ
___________________________________________________________________
no matter how hard you try you can't change the fact that TLJ is objectively a bad movie, a disaster of screenplay covered in enough eye candy to bedazzle unsuspecting kids.
it has nothing to do with living up to the awesomeness of the old movies.
;
it's just a bad movie, Transformers or Ninja Turtles bad.
It’s obvious from interviews that Rian couldn’t of cared less about what went on in the other films. He treated TLJ like he was making a solo independent film not continuing a already established story.
Rian even told mark hamill that he is not concerned with what the fans want, he concerned with what he (Rian) wants
The knights of Gareth will rule
No, no matter how hard you try you can’t change the fact that you calling TLJ objectively bad is purely subjective. Sorry.
Killing him infuriated many.
The knights of Gareth will rule
Pirate of the Knights of Gareth
TLJ : 0 Lightsaber duels
ROTS> TLJ, VIII does not include something fundamental in the saga. Thanks to RIAN
The knights of Gareth will rule
You know, I didn't think of it this way. I knew that he wanted to do what he wanted and put a spin on it, but as a director, you should know whether or not that spin is good for the franchise. We're not talking about how good the movie is on it's own; we're talking about how it fits into the franchise as a whole. And you know what? Yes, all Star Wars movies had their flaws. But they didn't ruin the story. They didn't make it unbearable or change the plot in ways that would never happen. There were a set of rules the universe of Star Wars had to apply by that they set up. And this movie just says, "you know what? Who the heck cares, 'cause I want to put my own spin on things!", and demolishes years working of lore, characters and more.
-If performing a hyperspace jump into a ship can cause THAT level of damage with such a tiny ship in comparison, why wouldn't you just have MISSILES WITH HYPER-DRIVES built in to, I don't know, take out the Death Star? Or even with the Trade Federation? Or WAY before all this?
-So, Luke is the hopeful guy in Star Wars. Sure, when he suffered a loss, he took it hard, but it was nigh impossible to make him lose hope completely. He didn't even try to strike down the Emperor by giving into the Dark Side. He saw hope in his father, who was one of the worst men in galactic history, just a little glimmer of light in a void of darkness. But hey, he not only has a "fleeting thought" of killing Ben, his nephew from his twin sister and best friend, but he brandishes it and contemplates for a good couple seconds. AND FOR WHAT?! Ben showed some Dark Side tendencies. So, he just lost all hope in him for several seconds and actually thought and nearly killed him?
-Leia in space. If it was Luke, I could maybe understand. But, what? She has like 0 training? I don't care if she took a week off to train with Luke, Yoda, and Obi Wan, she shouldn't be able to do that.
-Rey just learns how to use the Force on par with Kylo. And can best Luke in a little skirmish. And her training consisted of "reach out" and some philosophy about the Light and Dark, Jedi are failures. K. That's some bull.
-The Force supposedly chose Rey to balance out Kylo's darkness. I'm sorry, but that would mean she is A Chosen One. You heard me right; not only is she the Chosen One, but apparently there would be MORE THAN ONE!!!
Also, why does the Force just start actively intervening with the balance? The Force is supposed to be this mystical, well, Force, and has all this destiny and prophecy elements. Anakin was also stated to be the Chosen One by Disney after the take over. So, ate they going to say that "oh, the Jedi and Sith misinterpreted the prophecy. Turns out, 'sjxdjsn' doesn't translate to 'one', but it translates to 'few'"...
Also, Finn has no lasting damage from getting his back sliced. Because... Bacta....what is this, EA BF1?
I can't with some of this stuff. Please, @Cad_Bane , help me to forget!
"It would essentially ruin the eras and turn them into nothing much more than the same thing and same experience but with a different skin. Which is contrary to the point in having eras in the first place." - ZmanGames
It was just a flesh wound
Pirate of the Knights of Gareth
You gotta admit the timeline is just ridiculous
If anyone actually doubted it. the ending of Resurrection shows the opening of TLJ with all the Ships evacuating and the Radus Refueling
And just before that in Star Wars Battlefront 2: Resurrection the main characters saw Star-Killer Base being destroyed while on a First Order Star Destroyer their next action was boarding a escape craft and going to the Resistance Base
So let's give it the benefit of the doubt and say that someone in the time-span of 10 Hours (Even though the X-Wings arrived far sooner then 10 hours) this happened
Kylo Ren:
Kylo's Scar was healed, His Bow-Caster wound was healed, His various Light-Saber wounds from Rey were healed, his training was completed/Cancelled, His scar changed places
Hux:
Hux somehow grew Obi-Wan Lamb Chops, changed outfits, somehow organized a massive fleet
Finn:
His lengthy Saber burn to the Shoulder that Kylo inflicted on him has totally healed, Finn's back-wound is totally fine now
Snoke:
Total appearance change, New outfit, new throne room
Knights Of Ren:
They don't exist
Lol so true. Them lamb chops XD.
"It would essentially ruin the eras and turn them into nothing much more than the same thing and same experience but with a different skin. Which is contrary to the point in having eras in the first place." - ZmanGames
Nope. I think that's irrelevant.
"It would essentially ruin the eras and turn them into nothing much more than the same thing and same experience but with a different skin. Which is contrary to the point in having eras in the first place." - ZmanGames
Oh thanks man, I already had a wealth of issues and gripes with this movie but now you've just dumped a whole load of new hot steaming issues into my lap. Every time I think it can't get worse someone brings up something else that made ZERO SENSE.
Lol. I feel you.
"It would essentially ruin the eras and turn them into nothing much more than the same thing and same experience but with a different skin. Which is contrary to the point in having eras in the first place." - ZmanGames
Don't think it matters long. Disney might have ruined Luke Skywalker but at least in my head he is still the voice of The Joker.
One of the great mysteries yet to be solved @bfloo
How to effectively play Yoda: https://battlefront-forums.ea.com/discussion/97820/i-have-waited-a-long-time-for-this-moment-my-little-green-friend-yoda-guide
General discussions about Yoda: https://battlefront-forums.ea.com/discussion/98884/general-discussions-about-yoda
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Can we please stop with Jar Jar as a Sith? The only reason he showed up in Episode II and III is it was an easy middle finger to Lucas's critics.
I see midichlorians as a way to explain why 1) some people can feel the Force and some can't, and 2) why that trait seems to be heritable to a certain extent. Scientifically it's clearly drawn from mitochondria, with the spiritual element added.
Anakin struggled with several Force abilities, animal bonding being one of them. He was set up as all-powerful with the Chosen One prophecy and midichlorians, but his personality kept him from achieving his full potential.
I agree regarding Clone Wars.
Because they're different movies?
TFA showed reverence to the source material, introduced new characters, brought back and did justice to old characters, and set up many questions that the rest of the trilogy could slowly tease out. Everything it needed to do to be a successful first installment in the new Star Wars trilogy.
TLJ threw out the source material, introduced new characters who did nothing, pushed a political message over a narrative which weakened the new characters, and made irrelevant the answers to the questions that TFA set up. Additionally, it added nothing to the overall lore and, in that way, was two and a half hours of fluff.
TFA was a terrible predictable reboot with a plot that heavily resembles ANH that focuses too much on nostalgia to keep things interesting. Not to mention the sub par performance throughout the whole movie and terrible childish humor that ruins nearly every scene that supposed to be taken seriously. And how the heck is TLJ political but TFA isn’t? And how did TFA do justice to old characters?
TFA destroyed character development from the OT and pushed the reset button on the whole story that’s been developed over six movies. So What about the new republic? Nah, let’s just destroy everything our characters fought for in the OT with yet another planet destroying super weapon so yet again the “good guys” will appear like underdogs. Or what about our characters that developed throughout the OT? Han? He’s back to being a selfish smuggler that ditched his family and friends. Luke? He always saw the good in Vader and always cared about protecting his friends surely he would be right alongside his family and friends? Nope, He’s alone and sad on island and ditched his friends and family because he doesn’t want to be bothered.
TFA suffers from some of the same exact problems that TLJ does. That’s why it’s confusing to some like me and others abs to why anyone could praise TFA but hate TLJ. I wouldn’t call anything TFA did “successful” but that’s just my opinion.
I’m pretty sure most of these people saying this are the same ones who said they will not buy Battlefront 2 yet they’re still here posting in the forums like I wouldn’t notice or remember.